Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_moksha]

It seems ironically wrong when religious constructs lead to divisiveness. Sort of like the Acceptance Club declaring that only hugs which involve the bodies right side are acceptable to the consternation of those giving full frontal hugs. The declarers can write the position of hugs into the rules but by doing so they are missing the true meaning of acceptance.

[_beastie]

did allow that there were 3 options. ONe of which is that you are lying.

Yes, you were generous enough to allow for laziness or deliberate obtuseness.

But here's the option you didn't allow, which I think is obvious:

Beastie tried to figure out what point Hoops was trying to make, and used Hoops' statements to do so, but Hoops is playing some sort of game in which he/she refuses to actually - heaven forfend - simply and clearly make his/her point. This allows Hoops endless plausible denial.

It means that LDS works are certainly part of their equation, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

Ok, I'll bite, Just WHAT are you talking about here? I have yet to figure it out. You won't answer Jason's clear question. You won't answer me when I ask you to specifically cite which part of Christianity I don't understand. You just play this silly little coy game. Why? Are you afraid to take a stand? Or have you seen your actual argument torn apart too many times in the past to be willing to share it here? Why participate on this discussion at all if you refuse to directly identify your stand?

After interacting with you on this topic for TWO threads, I still have no idea why you think Mormonism isn't Christian. And no, it's not because I'm being deliberately obtuse, lazy, or lying. It's because you refuse to explain your stance.

[_beastie]

This is my first real Beastie experience. It's been, well, "interesting". Same quotes intended. But, I've seen her kind many, many times before. I used to work with them, and it was a thrill a minute, for sure.

Oooo, "my kind." LOL. And what kind would that be?

Let me guess. "My kind" are atheists who are critical of Mormonism, which pleases Hoops, but then turn around and refuse to play the "let's analyze and criticize Mormonism but refuse to put Christianity in general under the same microscope" game. And that drives Hoops crazy. There's no level playing field in Hoops' game, is there?

[_beastie]

Here's an example of how impossible it is to ascertain just what Hoops' position is.

I said:

Milesius rejects trinitarianism. Does or does that not eliminate him as qualifying as a Christian?

Hoops replied:
[/quote]It does not.[/quote]

Yet, earlier on this same thread, we had this exchange about trinitarianism:

I said

It (Trinitarianism) is hardly self-evident, and certainly not self-evident enough to be the lynchpin for claiming certain groups who accept Jesus as their Savior aren't really Christian at all.

Hoops replied:

Who said it was the lynchpin? That's your representation in order to give yourself more ammunition. Trinitarianism is certainly foundational, but it is one of several views where LDS puts itself outside of Christianity.

So, when Milesius rejects Trinitarianism, it does not exclude him from being a Christian. But when Mormonism rejects Trinitarianism, it is one of the views where LDS puts itself outside of Christianity.

[_beastie]

Yeah, sure. I'll so dispute, if only for fun, if we can agree upon the points at which Christianity was first and fundamentally influenced by Judaism, without reference to 'paganism,' such that the two are distinct.

Do you dispute that both the symbol of the cross and the fish had been used in pagan religions, and were gradually assimilated into Christianity?

[_jon]

Yeah, sure. I'll so dispute, if only for fun, if we can agree upon the points at which Christianity was first and fundamentally influenced by Judaism, without reference to 'paganism,' such that the two are distinct.

Do you dispute that both the symbol of the cross and the fish had been used in pagan religions, and were gradually assimilated into Christianity?

That's interesting.
Are you suggesting that the cross symbol was in use prior to Christ?

[_beastie]

That's interesting.
Are you suggesting that the cross symbol was in use prior to Christ?

Yes. You can read about it here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm

[_Jason Bourne]

It certainly does not. It has taken God and morphed him into something unrecognizable when viewed through Christian orthodoxy.

Hoops, instead of playing catch me if you can why not be more explicit. It does not seem to me that Beastie has distorted anything really. If any one is trying to avoid specifics it honestly seems like it would be you. Instead of dealing with her points head on you accuse her of lying, being obtuse or lazy. Yet it seems to me if any one is being obtuse, it is you. Or perhaps you are being intentionally vague in order to obfuscate the issue.

I am still waiting for your top three items that you think would disqualify Mormonism from being considered a Christian denomination. Then let's explore those items.

If that is to tough for you let's start with the comment of yours above. You argue that Mormons may claim to believe in Jesus for salvation. But it is a Jesus that you think does not exist. I assume that is because you "It has taken God and morphed him into something unrecognizable when viewed through Christian orthodoxy."

The comment really is a bit problematic because as I have noted to you too many times to count, Mormonism does not claim to be what the world would term Orthodox Christianity. Yet is does and always has claimed to be a Christian sect and even claimed to be The Christian Church. But I diverge. Start with your comment above. What about God and Christ has the LDS Church so morphed that in your view it disqualifies it to be considered Christian. And leave it as just Christian. Not something it does not claim to be.

[_Runtu]

If that is to tough for you let's start with the comment of yours above. You argue that Mormons may claim to believe in Jesus for salvation. But it is a Jesus that you think does not exist. I assume that is because you "It has taken God and morphed him into something unrecognizable when viewed through Christian orthodoxy."

The comment really is a bit problematic because as I have noted to you too many times to count, Mormonism does not claim to be what the world would term Orthodox Christianity. Yet is does and always has claimed to be a Christian sect and even claimed to be The Christian Church. But I diverge. Start with your comment above. What about God and Christ has the LDS Church so morphed that in your view it disqualifies it to be considered Christian. And leave it as just Christian. Not something it does not claim to be.

I've never understood this "wrong Jesus" argument. When people tell me I don't believe in the real Jesus, I say, "I believe in the Jesus of Nazareth who is the Son of God, who was born of Mary in Bethlehem, who fulfilled the Law of Moses, who suffered and died to save me from my sins, and who was resurrected after three days in the tomb. Which Jesus do you believe in?"

It seems to me the sticking point is the Trinity, which to my mind is an attempt to understand Deity by superimposing a Platonic template on the scriptures.

[_beastie]

I've never understood this "wrong Jesus" argument. When people tell me I don't believe in the real Jesus, I say, "I believe in the Jesus of Nazareth who is the Son of God, who was born of Mary in Bethlehem, who fulfilled the Law of Moses, who suffered and died to save me from my sins, and who was resurrected after three days in the tomb. Which Jesus do you believe in?"

It seems to me the sticking point is the Trinity, which to my mind is an attempt to understand Deity by superimposing a Platonic template on the scriptures.

Well, I thought the trinity was the sticking point, as well, but then Hoops declared that Milesius would qualify as a Christian.