Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_thews]

I haven't seen a good enough argument to persuade me of your conclusion yet. Nor am I convinced that it matters. The reason I don't think it matters is because everyone makes God who they want God to be.

This is fine... believe what you wish, but Christianity rejects Joseph Smith and his "New testament" of Jesus Christ as one of a false prophet of God.

I'm not trying to downplay this topic. I think it is often on the minds of LDS leadership and their PR department in the COB. I also think it is a classic flamewar discussion topic for religious debaters.

Judaism is not Christianity, nor does either side wish to morph the other definition. For Mormons to claim Christianity embraces Joseph Smith's doctrine as "Christian" is simply not true. Mormonism accepts Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and its doctrine, while Christianity rejects Joseph Smith and Mormon doctrine as a false prophet of God. To claim they are the same is a one way street, as Mormon doctrine dictates Christians are damned for rejecting Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.

A persuasive argument for Mormons being Christian is their belief in Christ having special powers to create the earth and drop sins during his time in the Garden.

A persuasive argument for Mormons being "Mormon" is they accept Joseph Smith a s a prophet of God and its doctrine, thus justifying a definition that encompasses the doctrine and bizarre Masonic rituals. Christians don't believe in baptisms for the dead, seer stones and the pagan book of the dead, all of Mormon doctrine, Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, Kolob, magic garments, (I could go on for pages) and the three levels of heaven or polygamy as a requirement to enter into God's glory. Christianity doesn't accept God and Jesus are two personages, so the very concept of God is completely different. To claim they are so close it justifies one common definition is ignorance of those differences.

A persuasive argument against might be as you alluded to with the scale of traditional Christianity vs. Non traditional and the focus of teachings being outside of the New Testament.

The only people who accept this argument as persuasive are in denial of the doctrine they place faith in.

[_Hoops]

Just how much theology must one correctly grasped to be saved?

At the low end... none.

Just how much theology must one correctly grasped to have "true freedom" in Christ?

That's a bit different. Others should probably chime in here, but I would say understanding who Jesus is, what He did, and what we are in Him is crucial

Moreover, how can a Calvinist believe in any sort of freedom? The very idea is absurd.

I don't think so.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason and Liz are correct when they say Jesus was already part of the godhead before coming to earth according to Mormon beliefs.

Of course we are ;-)

[_Hoops]

I've sat through too many hellfire and damnation sermons to be convinced otherwise.

Well, ok, you're convinced. But why would you rely on the particular style of an individual preacher to determine what the governing doctrine is?

Perhaps your particular brand of Christianity doesn't teach this, but if you're trying to deny that others do, I won't take you seriously.

There are no brands. Please stop saying that. There is Christian and there is non Christian.

Certainly I won't deny what you've said. But I am confident that what they were preaching ABOUT is in line with what I'm saying. The delivery may be uncomfortable for you, and understandably so, but why can't different Christians express this Truth in different ways? This is what makes Christianity so rich and exciting. To me, anyway. I've been to a few "black" churches (I was invited by friends) and, wow, what a fun time. And I've been to many RCC services - completely the other end of the spectrum - and completely fulfilling. Neither were contrary to what I'm saying.

Just my experience, for what it's worth.

[_Hoops]

Jason and Liz are correct when they say Jesus was already part of the godhead before coming to earth according to Mormon beliefs.

Of course we are ;-)

Open a new thread for rebuttal?

[_Jason Bourne]

Attempting to answer questions posed to me, helps to draw out my thinking and I don't know why some folks are so reluctant to provide an answer when asked. (That comment has nothing to do with you)

Nature of God (Reader's Digest Version)

God is self existent, always God
Jesus is God, self existent, always God


I will try to add more later...

Well I think we need to explore what self existent means. I know that there are varying opinions in Mormonism about the infinite regression of Gods. Some hold to that and others do not. I believe that in Mormonism it can be argued there is a First God, what the D&C call The Eternal God of all other gods. I do not hold to an eternal regression of gods. So it can be argued in Mormonism there is a First Cause type God that started the ball rolling so to speak. I believe this is our God the Eternal Father. Next Jesus is His first born and the Bible calls Jesus the First Born of all creation. Mormonism teaches Jesus was in the beginning with God. The dicey issue gets to whether Jesus was a created being. As a created being this would be a major issue for Orthodox Christianity. Though if my memory does not fail me before the creeds there was Christian thought that Jesus was a created being and subordinate to the Father.

But created or not created is a moot point for Mormonism because Mormonism teaches that ultimately none of us are created beings in the most pure sense of what we are. Mormonism teaches we existed always as at least an intelligence.

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason,

Your post brings up something that I need to ask Hoops about.

Hoops....get yerself back on this thread, I mean like NOW.

:-D

So Hoops,

If Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, how does that make Jesus self-existent?

How could he always exist if he was begotten?

Huh?

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason,



One of the main objections I have regarding Mormonism is how Mormonism views Jesus Christ. When someone tells me that Jesus was a man who worked his way to exaltation, I recoil at the thought of that.

I think that this one has been addressed.

Further, when someone tells me that Jesus "work on the cross" saves us from "death and hell" and isn't sufficient without specific works, that also turns me away from thinking that Mormonism=Christianity.

Mormons believe that Faith and works go together. I think many Mormon miss this point though because the Church emphasizes obeying commandments so heavily. But as I noted in this thread it is Faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism and gift of the Holy Ghost that leads to justification. I believe this leads in LDS terms to entrance into the Celestial Kingdom. Then one must abide in Christ or endure to the end because we do not believe in eternal security. But the works avail nothing if not linked to Faith in Christ and justification. Sanctification and the higher rewards in the Celestial kingdom are contingent on additional ordinances in the temple and faithfulness to the covenants made there. But still without Jesus those would do nothing at all.

I see Mormonism as a Christian heresy.

Ok with me. I see why you would. Mormonism sees your Christian tradition as heresy or a form of apostate Christianity too.

I also don't know how Mormon's square it when they say that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father in terms of the restoration of the primitive Christian church regarding polygamy and populating other worlds type doctrines.

Jesus Christ in Mormonism is the savior and redeemer of not only this world but other worlds in our universe as well if they are populated with Children of God. Is the doctrine of polygamy enough to kick Mormonism outside of the term Christian?

If Heavenly Father is the god of this world, where are his other children? And if he has more, how does that make Jesus his only begotten?

Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation and Chosen from the beginning. He is the only begotten in the Flesh. See below:


Moses 4:1-4
1And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

2But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

3Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason

Ok with me. I see why you would. Mormonism sees your Christian tradition as heresy or a form of apostate Christianity too.

If it helps at all, I think of myself as a heretical Christian. That is to say, I see the "party line" but I can't tow it all.

:-D

[_beastie]

Just how much theology must one correctly grasped to be saved?

At the low end... none.

Just how much theology must one correctly grasped to have "true freedom" in Christ?

That's a bit different. Others should probably chime in here, but I would say understanding who Jesus is, what He did, and what we are in Him is crucial

I see. So there are no different brands of Christianity, but there are, apparently, different levels of salvation.

There's the low end... the end at which, I suppose, God holds his nose and lets theologically confused Person X in heaven.

But ain't no way that theologically confused Person X gets the "true freedom" of Christ. Person X may get into heaven, but that's it. No true freedom.