Jeffs - Definitely Worse than Smith

[_cafe crema]

Darn, the penguin beat me by two minutes.

The Penguin is quick, very quick with a sharp and sideways wit.

[_Hades]

Not sure that many polygamists have group sex with their wives. In Islam it is forbidden for one wife to see another wife nude, much less be engaged in sex at the same time with the husband or, as one would assume from most threesomes, sex with the other woman. I have read Islamic sites that actually question if Jesus ever gave the "Parable of the Ten Virgins" as it can imply that the groom had relations with the five virtuous brides at the same time.

Forbidden doesn't seem to matter. Allah, Heavenly Father, God, or whatever you want to call him can always make exceptions for those highest up the spiritual food chain.

[_beastie]

I know some critics like to call Smith a pedophile, but I believe the evidence contradicts that. There was only one questionable case, that of Helen Mar, and I don't believe there's clear evidence he had sex with her. I tend to think he was "hoarding" her as polygamists sometimes do. In other words, she's too young to marry, but they want to snatch her up so no one else gets her. So they put her on hold, so to speak. I conclude this may have been what happened with Helen Mar due to her apparent surprise, If I recall correctly eight months after her marriage, that it was meant to be a "real" marriage that would interfere with her social life. If she'd been having sex with Smith all that time, she would have known it was meant to be real.

Aside from Helen Mar, his wives, even the youngest, were sexually mature. If Smith were a pedophile, he would have done what Jeffs has done - target 12 year olds.

So, yeah, Smith was a sexual predator like Jeffs. But he wasn't a pedophile like Jeffs. In my view, that makes Jeffs worse.

As Themis mentioned, perhaps Smith could have had sex with multiple wives if they were consenting adults. First, there is no evidence he did. If he had, in my opinion, it would have made him more of a monster because it would likely have entailed more psychological manipulation of these women to get them to engage in an act that would have otherwise, most likely, outraged their moral sensibilities and even seem disgusting. But there's no evidence he did.

Even if he did, Jeffs is still worse. He was manipulating CHILDREN to engage in these quasi-orgies. CHILDREN.

So, yes, Jeffs committed the same predatory acts that Smith did, but he escalated and became far more monstrous.

I wonder if this is accepted in the FLDS - sex with more than one wife at a time? I would never have thought so. I always thought that fundamentalist polygamists were pretty conservative, sexually, other than having more than one wife. And if it's not generally accepted, I wonder if the FLDS will find out about this. I'm sure they'll find a way to justify it, but maybe it would trouble a few.

[_Fiannan]

I understand what you are saying Hades, but I do not think it is standard for Muslims or Mormon fundamentalists to have group sex. Then again it would be a great way to recruit bisexual women into the fold, wouldn't it?

[_Buffalo]

Jeffs is worse. 14 is bad, but 12 is worse.

Also, I understand that Jeffs sodomized a young boy, younger than 10.

[_Themis]

As Themis mentioned, perhaps Smith could have had sex with multiple wives if they were consenting adults.

I agree there is no evidence. The idea is that having sex with multiple consenting women at the same time is not a sin from a non-religious POV, and from a LDS POV it is a sin with one or more.

If he had, in my opinion, it would have made him more of a monster because it would likely have entailed more psychological manipulation of these women to get them to engage in an act that would have otherwise, most likely, outraged their moral sensibilities and even seem disgusting.

I am not sure more psychological manipulation would be necessary. Jeff's just has to get women already accepting polygamy to think it's ok to have sex with him as a group, while Joseph had to convince women from a Monogamous society to marry and have sex with him. I am not sure which would be more of a moral outrage to these two groups of women.

I think Jeff's did worse then Joseph in regards to sexual behavior, but Joseph is worse if we look at the whole picture.

[_Equality]

Also, there is only one case that involved a child of fourteen, and the evidence is questionable whether or not Smith actually had sex with Helen Mar before her death.

Nancy Winchester was 14 (or maybe 15).
http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/33-NancyWinchester.htm

[_Equality]

I know it's not pedophilia or anything, but here are some fun facts (that you won't see in any church manual). Lorenzo Snow had seven wives. His youngest wife was 24 when he married her; he was 57. He had a daughter by her when he was 82 years old. That daughter lived to see the bicentennial--that's right, a daughter of Lorenzo Snow (who was born in 1814) lived to 1976.

[_Tchild]

That's why I think Jeffs is worse than Smith.

Of course, Smith started the whole mess, and Jeffs is his Frankenstein.

So do I.

The whole FLDS movement is the red-headed stepchild/frankstein of the current LDS church headquarted in S.L.C (to differentiate amongst the many Mormon sects).

The LDS church evolved, changed, adapted and prospered, while the FLDS church maintained medievel era doctrines, beliefs and practices.

It is like seeing Neandertal man compared against a modern day urbanite.

[_Jersey Girl]

There is no evidence that Smith had sex with multiple women at one time.

There is no evidence that other wives watched him having sex with another wife.

Also, there is only one case that involved a child of fourteen, and the evidence is questionable whether or not Smith actually had sex with Helen Mar before her death.

That's why I think Jeffs is worse than Smith.

Of course, Smith started the whole mess, and Jeffs is his Frankenstein.

beastie,

You are right, based on what we know about Smith, Jeffs is a total sleaze.