Jeffs - Definitely Worse than Smith

[_MsJack]

There was never any question for me that what Warren Jeffs has done is far, far worse than anything that the evidence will permit Joseph Smith to be accused of doing. Even if the two had done exactly the same thing, i. e. coerce, "marry" and sleep with a 14 year-old girl*, I would still say that Warren Jeffs had done worse. Warren Jeffs lives in 2011, where it's illegal for adult men to have even consenting sexual relationships with girls under the age of 18. We know now that underage youth are easily manipulated and coerced by adults and we've laid down that line as a measure to protect them. The people who lived in the 19th century lacked that understanding and were much more open to older men marrying teenage girls, especially on the American frontier. There's no reason why a 19th-century man who had decided to implement polygamy would see teenage girls as off-limits.

Imagine if, tomorrow, we discovered that a white Christian preacher in New Jersey was holding six African Americans at his household, forcing them to work for him, and calling them his "slaves." Then imagine someone replied to this behavior with, "Well, he hasn't done anything worse than what Jonathan Edwards did." They'd be correct that Jonathan Edwards never spoke out against slavery and owned six different slaves. But they'd be wrong in thinking that the two have behaved in an identical manner, because our society has come to realize that slavery is a great evil that should be opposed at every turn. Edwards' society had not. Many, many good, admirable people have lived and died as slaveholders, never questioning the morality of what they were doing. But I feel pretty confident in saying that there are no good and admirable slaveholders living in the Western world today; everyone knows that it's wrong.

Likewise, I think that many good and admirable people have lived without blinking twice at the thought of an older man marrying a teenage girl. I'm willing to give Joseph Smith a pass on the ages of his brides where I'm not willing to do the same for Warren Jeffs because of the time periods they lived in.

I'm less willing to offer a pass on things like coercion, lying to one's wife, and practicing polygamy in a monogamous society at all.

I don't really care about the kink that Jeffs engaged in with his wives other than seeing it as a bizarre case study in the extent to which people will accept nonsense as coming from God. I care that he involved minors in his kinky games, but that would be outrageous no matter what the sexual activity was.

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* Am I saying that Joseph Smith coerced, "married," and slept with Helen Mar Kimball, who was 14?

Coerced? Yes.
"Married"? Yes.
Slept with? I don't know.

Am I saying that Joseph Smith coerced, "married," and slept with Nancy Winchester, who was either 14 or 15?

Coerced? I don't know.
"Married"? Yes.
Slept with? I don't know.

[_jon]

* Am I saying that Joseph Smith coerced, "married," and slept with Helen Mar Kimball, who was 14?

Coerced? Yes.
"Married"? Yes.
Slept with? I don't know.

Am I saying that Joseph Smith coerced, "married," and slept with Nancy Winchester, who was either 14 or 15?

Coerced? I don't know.
"Married"? Yes.
Slept with? I don't know.

But based on the fact that, the commandment to marry multiple wives was specifically for the purpose of raising seed, you can bet the farm that it was Joseph's intention to sleep with them at some point even if he didn't seal the deal.

[_MsJack]

But based on the fact that, the commandment to marry multiple wives was specifically for the purpose of raising seed, you can bet the farm that it was Joseph's intention to sleep with them at some point even if he didn't seal the deal.

I think this is true, though I don't know how old they would have been when he got around to doing this.

[_Themis]

There was never any question for me that what Warren Jeffs has done is far, far worse than anything that the evidence will permit Joseph Smith to be accused of doing. Even if the two had done exactly the same thing, i. e. coerce, "marry" and sleep with a 14 year-old girl*, I would still say that Warren Jeffs had done worse. Warren Jeffs lives in 2011, where it's illegal for adult men to have even consenting sexual relationships with girls under the age of 18. We know now that underage youth are easily manipulated and coerced by adults and we've laid down that line as a measure to protect them. The people who lived in the 19th century lacked that understanding and were much more open to older men marrying teenage girls, especially on the American frontier. There's no reason why a 19th-century man who had decided to implement polygamy would see teenage girls as off-limits.

I think it may be a mistake to assume everyone today in western countries has had the same education and cultural influences. There are a number of groups who have significantly different education and cultural influences on how they think and view right and wrong, and the FLDS is certainly one of them. Did he really grow up understanding having sex with young girls one is married to is wrong when it was the norm. Joseph at least knew it was wrong to coerce and sleep with different women.

jon

But based on the fact that, the commandment to marry multiple wives was specifically for the purpose of raising seed, you can bet the farm that it was Joseph's intention to sleep with them at some point even if he didn't seal the deal.

I agree that he most likely wound have had sex with Helen and other wives who were very young at the time. It wouldn't surprise me that he did not due to knowing that had not yet gone through puberty.

[_Joey]

This is a bit like trying to conclude that Jeffery Dahmer was so much more evil and disgusting to elevate, no matter how slight, the actions of Ted Bundy.

What they both did was an abomination.  True for both Jeffs and Smith. While we have digital evidence of Jeffs techniques in coercion and perversion, we could have easily had Oliver Cowdery's testimony of what he witnessed with Smith and Alger.  I really see little difference between these two except that Jeffs stood trial and evidence was presented.

And Jeffs at least admitted and stood by  his beliefs in his Mormon doctrines.  Smith, the coward that he was, spent his life lying about his polygamous actions and beliefs in an attempt to save his public reputation and coercive life.  All the time chumming around with his "revelation given" best bud John Bennett.  Unfortunately for Smith, Carthage was not home to a Casey Anthony jury mindset.

But if this board finds Jeffs actions as a basis for "Smith elevation", it may be the factual evidence that Prof Provo will need  in his announced and upcoming literary blockbuster "LDS vs FLDS".  If I know Provo (after 30,000 + posts on message boards, kinda hard not to!), he will use this boards conclusion to have Smith portrayed as the like of Robert Young in "Father Knows Best"' or "Marcus Welby MD"!  Should definately meet editorial requirements for "Mormon Times" .

What Provo will never put in print, for his Utah County audience, is the fact the both Jeffs and Smith were law breakers. Both ran from the law.  Both had their followers wise up and turn on them. And both received deserving final justice.  But then I do believe Provo is a smart guy and knows not to bite the hand that feeds him!

Let us know when it comes out Provo.  Article signing at the Olivewood?

[_MsJack]

Did [Jeffs] really grow up understanding having sex with young girls one is married to is wrong when it was the norm.

Unless he spent his entire life in a cave (which doesn't appear to be the case), Warren Jeffs certainly knew that sex with underage girls was highly illegal.

[_Themis]

Unless he spent his entire life in a cave (which doesn't appear to be the case), Warren Jeffs certainly knew that sex with underage girls was highly illegal.

In their minds they may see those as man's laws, not God's laws.

[_DarkHelmet]

Jeffs seems worse to me too, but we don't know all the details of Joseph smith. If he had a tape recorder we might be grossed out by him too. Also, if he married someone, we have to assume he had sex with her. Married people have sex by default, so unless there was a clause in the marriage vows that said no sex would be involved we must assume there was sex.

Since girls start their periods earlier now than they did back then, a 14 or 15 year old girl wasn't as developed sexually as 14 and 14 year olds today. The church has done a good job of trying to make Joseph Smith's polygamy seem normal, but his non-Mormon peers from that time period viewed him the same way we view Warren Jeffs, and they formed mobs that violently harassed him for years, ultimately killing him.

[_DarkHelmet]

The funniest part of this whole Warren Jeffs trial is how the stories alway say he is the leader of the FLDS or Fundamentalist Mormons. Having this guys name mentioned near the words LDS and Mormon must have the church PR dept working overtime getting the word out to the media that the LDS lurch is not associated with him.

[_Tim the Enchanter]

According to Family Search, Lorenzo Snow married Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen on June 12, 1871. He would have been 57 and she would have been 15 (she was born on October 10, 1855).

I know it's not pedophilia or anything, but here are some fun facts (that you won't see in any church manual). Lorenzo Snow had seven wives. His youngest wife was 24 when he married her; he was 57. He had a daughter by her when he was 82 years old. That daughter lived to see the bicentennial--that's right, a daughter of Lorenzo Snow (who was born in 1814) lived to 1976.