Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_Aristotle Smith]

Brigham Young was a whack job.

Yes, but all Mormon claims to authority go right through that whack job.

[_Yoda]

Brigham Young was a whack job.

But he's my whack job.

I hope you two are very happy together. ;-)

[_thews]

Is that what any Mormon on this thread is claiming? Did anyone say "We are the same type of Christian you are? I have held all along that Mormonism is not Orthodox or even what we recognize as historic Christianity. Yet it is Christian and as noted in its purest form claims to be a restoration of THE original Christian Church.

What "Christian" church believes in this "restoration" as the LDS believe? Answer = none. Mormons believe this... they are the only ones to believe this.

Has Mormonism or its leaders ever claimed not to be Christian? I do not think so.

Making an argument from silence is the weakest possible stance. The fact is, well, let's just look at the facts...

http://www.mission.org/jesuspeople/mormatak.htm

Smith claimed that while he was praying in the grove he had been visited by both God the Father and Jesus Christ. When he asked these personages which church he should join, he claimed he was told to join none of them, "for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight" (Joseph Smith History 1:19).

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

Joseph Smith - When asked, "Will all be damned but Mormon?" he replied, "Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119).

Joseph Smith - "Ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 327).

I guess your point is Mormonism IS Christianity, so "Christians" aren't really Christians and there is no such thing as Mormons?

Saved in the sense of exaltation in the highest degree glory, yes.

According to Mormon theology.

No not really. Mormonism recognizes what it terms as apostate Christianity as containing many truths but mainly lacking the authority of to administer ordinances of salvation.

By what metric do you define apostate Christianity? Someone who believes Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God?

You may be right. Yet it is a Christian sect. Many may wish to view it heretical or what have you that are in the more orthodox traditions.

This is nonsense and based on your biased opinion. Weeding through your supposed holes to define what defines Jesus and God according to Christian doctrine excludes the very specific definition of how Mormonism defines it. Joseph Smith changed the Bible. Are you then going to take a BCspace stance on what is "official" Mormon doctrine? Do you deny Joseph Smith changed the Bible to write himself into it? That makes all of Mormon doctrine exclusive to Mormonism... unless you wish to reject the changes made by the prophet of God you place faith in.

I think this is not totally accurate as I have noted from LDS sources on this very thread. Jesus in Mormon doctrine was never just like other men and women. Jesus was chosen and the only begotten of the father from the beginning and already One with God ( meaning in mind, might, glory and power but not substance) before he was born. That is not like other men and women.

More tap dancing to attempt to prove similarities, rather than place focus on the vast differences. I don't get your stance Jason... it's as if you're attempting to argue Joseph Smith really was a prophet of God... something only Mormons believe.

[_beastie]

Why do some posters have difficulty using the label "Christian heresy" to describe Mormonism? Or is everyone ok with that?

[_Yoda]

Do you deny Joseph Smith changed the Bible to write himself into it?

Where did Joseph Smith write himself into the Bible?

[_Ceeboo]

Hey all,

Been away for a few days (Fishing for some distant ancestors/fish, tubing on the pontoon, drinking ice cold Heineken, getting fatter, listening to country music, BBQ-ing some cow parts, loving up the bride, etc, etc).

Very interesting thread, in my opinion.

From the desk of Ceeboo: (2 cents)

Although there may indeed be many Mormon's who are Christian, in my book, Mormonism can not be found under the umbrella of Christianity. (No matter how hard and/or long you look)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_beastie]

Where did Joseph Smith write himself into the Bible?

Joseph Smith translation of the Bible
Genesis 50:24-38

24And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die, and go unto my fathers; and I go down to my grave with joy. The God of my father Jacob be with you, to deliver you out of affliction in the days of your bondage; for the Lord hath visited me, and I have obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of my loins, the Lord God will raise up a righteous branch out of my loins; and unto thee, whom my father Jacob hath named Israel, a prophet; (not the Messiah who is called Shilo;) and this prophet shall deliver my people out of Egypt in the days of thy bondage.

25And it shall come to pass that they shall be scattered again; and a branch shall be broken off, and shall be carried into a far country; nevertheless they shall be remembered in the covenants of the Lord, when the Messiah cometh; for he shall be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the Spirit of power; and shall bring them out of darkness into light; out of hidden darkness, and out of captivity unto freedom.

26A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins.

27Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren.

28And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him.

29And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king’s daughter, and shall be called her son.

30And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;

31Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

32And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days.

33And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.

34And the Lord sware unto Joseph that he would preserve his seed forever, saying, I will raise up Moses, and a rod shall be in his hand, and he shall gather together my people, and he shall lead them as a flock, and he shall smite the waters of the Red Sea with his rod.

35And he shall have judgment, and shall write the word of the Lord. And he shall not speak many words, for I will write unto him my law by the finger of mine own hand. And I will make a spokesman for him, and his name shall be called Aaron.

36And it shall be done unto thee in the last days also, even as I have sworn. Therefore, Joseph said unto his brethren, God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land, unto the land which he sware unto Abraham, and unto Isaac, and to Jacob.

37And Joseph confirmed many other things unto his brethren, and took an oath of the children of Israel, saying unto them, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

38So Joseph died when he was an hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and they put him in a coffin in Egypt; and he was kept from burial by the children of Israel, that he might be carried up and laid in the sepulchre with his father. And thus they remembered the oath which they sware unto him.

[_Hoops]

Hey all,

Been away for a few days (Fishing for some distant ancestors/fish, tubing on the pontoon, drinking ice cold Heineken, getting fatter, listening to country music, BBQ-ing some cow parts, loving up the bride, etc, etc).

I'll be doing the same thing in about 2 weeks. Without the country music. Maybe work in a few ATV rides. Good stuff, eh?

[_beastie]

I'd really like to know if those who reject Mormonism as Christian would be willing to label Mormonism a Christian heresy.

It's not that different from some early Christian beliefs, that were later termed heresies.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html

[_Ceeboo]

Hey beastie,

I'd really like to know if those who reject Mormonism as Christian would be willing to label Mormonism a Christian heresy.

I would not be willing.

It's not that different from some early Christian beliefs, that were later termed heresies.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html

It is entirely and completely different, in my opinion.


Peace,
Ceeboo