Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_Simon Belmont]

I think we should define Christians by those who adhere to ecumenical councils!

I respect traditional Christianity's right to call themselves Christian -- and of course they are, being Christocentric and all.

But, forgive me if this offends anyone, it is not my intention:

I never understood why some traditional Christians hold so dear the fact that a bunch of dudes got together and voted about the nature of God.

[_jon]

Simon, do you believe that God was once a man?

And can you explain this scripture...

Luke 10:22
And no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son...

...as it relates to the nature of God?

Thanks

[_beastie]

Hey beastie,

I'd really like to know if those who reject Mormonism as Christian would be willing to label Mormonism a Christian heresy.

I would not be willing.

It's not that different from some early Christian beliefs, that were later termed heresies.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html

It is entirely and completely different, in my opinion.


Peace,
Ceeboo

How is it entirely and completely different???? Mainstreamers on this thread are saying Mormonism can't be Christian because it teaches the wrong things about the nature of God. That is exactly why Christian heresies are called heresies. What makes Mormonism so completely different than, say, the heresy that teaches Christ was a regular man who was adopted by God and made his son on earth?

[_stemelbow]

Can those who say Mormonism is not Chrsitian give a definition of Christian so we can at least have some grounds from which to discuss this?

I'd think Christian is defined as one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ, including the teaching that He is THE Savior. Who disagrees and why?

[_consiglieri]

Can those who say Mormonism is not Chrsitian give a definition of Christian so we can at least have some grounds from which to discuss this?

That was actually the reason I posted the three most common explanations I have encountered as to why some Christians consider Mormonism non-Christian.

So we could have a basis from which to discuss the matter.

I think proponents of the view that Mormons are non-Christian may do better with their arguments when discussing something other than specific reasons.

Once a solid reason is given, counter-examples are readily forthcoming.

And by a counter-example, I mean examples of other people and groups most would readily agree are Christian who believe(d) similar ideas.

Beastie is doing a good job of showing why this is problematic on the issue of the nature of God.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_stemelbow]

Yes, Consiglieri, I appreciate your three possible options, but I'm asking for something concrete from those in particular who are arguing against Mormonism as Chrsitian.

[_Hoops]

Actually, the problem lies here:

I think proponents of the view that Mormons are non-Christian may do better with their arguments when discussing something other than specific reasons.

[_Jason Bourne]

I have repeatedly asked those who think the Mormonism diverges too much from Orthodoxy to be considered Christian what there top three complaints are. List them out then let's do a comparison and contrast. I have some ideas as to what we might see but I think it would be good to do this exercise. Jersey did post a big one about God and God being self existent as did KA. I talked a bit about these a bit but maybe it is worth a bit more.

[_Yoda]

Can those who say Mormonism is not Chrsitian give a definition of Christian so we can at least have some grounds from which to discuss this?

I'd think Christian is defined as one who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ, including the teaching that He is THE Savior. Who disagrees and why?

I agree with Stem on this one. That is why I have a problem with Mormonism being termed as Christian heresy. Heresy has a negative connotation that I don't think should be applied to Mormonism. Also, like it or not, Mormons do worship Christ. The full name of our church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

To contend that Mormons are not Christian implies that we do not worship Christ. This is incorrect. The worship of Jesus Christ is fundamental to our existence as a Church. It is our core doctrine.

Yes, I will readily admit that many of our tenets are bizarre, and will go so far as to say that some of them should be reexamined. But that's not what we're talking about here.

ALL Christian religions have tenets that are unique and bizarre.

The thread, however which we all share universally, is that we worship Jesus Christ as our Savior and our Lord.

[_Jason Bourne]

For a generic grouping term to have any meaning, there has to be some commonality. At some point the differences become stark enough so that "We aren't the same type of X" becomes functionally equivalent to "We aren't X."

No not really. I am a human but I am not African or Asian. But I am still a human.

I have held all along that Mormonism is not Orthodox or even what we recognize as historic Christianity. Yet it is Christian and as noted in its purest form claims to be a restoration of THE original Christian Church.

So here is the choice Mormons have to make. Either 1) Mormons are Christians and are the only Christians or 2) Mormons are a different species of religious believer and the other people who call themselves Christians are Christians. Given what you just said, I don't see how anyone can have it both ways. If you relax the claim that Mormons are the restoration of THE original Christian church, then you are no longer forced into a dichotomy.

I was simply stating what it means to claim to be a restoration. Other than the 19th century rhetoric that you quote below I think it is pretty clear the the LDS Church always considered itself to be a Christian denomination and also considered the rest of the Christian denominations Christian albeit lacking total truth. The dichotomy you set forth above is not one adopted in totality by the LDS Church.

Has Mormonism or its leaders ever claimed not to be Christian? I do not think so.

No, but Brigham said these gems:

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199).

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and kicked on to the earth" (Journal of Discourses 6:176).

"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense…the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century" (Journal of Discourses 6:167).

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute beast." (Journal of Discourses 6:25).

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing….Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest of fools; they know neither God nor the things of God" (Journal of Discourses 13:225).

So I guess according to Brigham, Mormons can only be Christian if they also agree that Mormons are: as ignorant of God as the brute beast, a perfect pack of nonsense, hatched in hell, etc..[/quote]


Yes and all I can say is BFD. I am surprised that you as a former Mormon would insinuate these mean Brigham did not consider the LDS Church Christian. You know as well as I what was going on at that time and why the flamboyant comments were made.