Mormonism is not "Christianity"

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _stemelbow »

Jersey Girl wrote:LDS to EV translator, at your service!

When LDS say that (just about) everyone is saved, what they are referring to is the EV concept of bodily resurrection. EV's believe that ALL persons will be resurrected.


uh...not really. Even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive glory, are added unto. This is not equivalent.

When LDS refer to exaltation, it is akin to the EV concept of Salvation.


Go tell that to the EVs who see LDS exaltation as far to grand to be true--no one becomes a god in the sense that LDS think, according to the EV concept.

Here, let me go one step further.

If you ask LDS what they believe to be true about the Celestial Kingdom (I almost said forum!), they believe they can become a god of their own world.

If you ask EV's what they believe to be true about their eternal state, some will tell you that they believe they might have different abilities than we have here on earth.

EV's stop short of using the phrase "becoming a god" because EV's believe that puts man on par with God which is entirely blasphemous in the EV mind.


They come short of nearly everything LDS refer to as exalation, so much so that their heaven comes off as more of Terretrial glory to LDS.

I hope I clarified where Jersey the self-proclaimed translator was wrong.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Jersey Girl »

stemelbow wrote:
I hope I clarified where Jersey the self-proclaimed translator was wrong.


No actually, you didn't clarify. How about clarifying this?

stem
uh...not really. Even those in the Telestial Kingdom receive glory, are added unto. This is not equivalent.



What do you mean by "added unto"?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _consiglieri »

Buffalo wrote:Only if Christians are Jewish because the religion they took their stuff from was Judaism ;)


LOL.

But wasn't the distinction between Christianity and Judaism promoted by the Christians in order to distinguish their religion from Judaism?

In other words, for this analogy to hold, wouldn't the current situation have to be non-LDS Christians saying Mormons ARE Christian and Mormons saying, "No, we're not"?

Looked at another way, if historically the Jews were saying Christians are not Jewish, and the Christians kept insisting they were Jewish, would we today have more difficulty answering the question whether Christians are Jewish?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _consiglieri »

Analytics wrote:However, there is also a more specific definition of Christanity which is very common in our culture. The specific defnition of Christianity is the one specific religion that believes that faith in Jesus is the only thing necessary for salvation. When somebody says "I'm a Christian,", she is usually using "Christian" in this more specific way.



I think this is an important point, and goes to the heart of reason number 3 I posted earlier about why it is some consider Mormons non-Christian--the belief that something in addition to belief/profession is important to our salvation/judgment.

I have trouble, though, with the idea that one group of Christians (those who believe in "faith only") are able to claim their relatively recent Protestant-based soteriology to be the sine qua non of what constitutes a Christian, and then excluding all who do not believe precisely the way they do on this one issue.

I would have a similar problem if Mormons declared that anybody who doesn't believe God is a resurrected being is not a Christian.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _consiglieri »

Buffalo wrote:What complicates this is Mormons have a different take on what it means to be saved. They believe that technically, just about everyone is saved, even non-Christians. Exalted (deified), not so much.


Another good point, and one which I feel is underappreciated by many Mormons.

I think we would agree Mormons believe all are saved (in whatever kingdom) only through the merits of Jesus Christ.

But this raises another question, given the Mormon's virtual universalistic approach to salvation:

"Are Universalist non-LDS believers Christian?"

These, I think, are the kinds of counter-examples that immediately confront us when we get into specifics.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _consiglieri »

stemelbow wrote:I hope I clarified where Jersey the self-proclaimed translator was wrong.


Actually, I didn't see anything Jersey Girl got wrong, Stemmy Ol' Pal.
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Hoops »

stemelbow wrote:Why can't we get a clear definition of the word in each of your views?

Because I've given it several times. Any religion that teaches contrary to essential Christian doctrine is not a Christian religion. For me: Trinity (Deity of Christ within the Trinity), total depravity. It's one thing to believe these things yet not be able to adequately understand them. It is quite another to deny them, as Mormonism does.

I would add that the picture on Christ's atoning death still seems a bit muddled. Contrast that with RCC's position, but there really is no comparison. And, Mormon practice may not align terribly well with its doctrinal stance, which, at a minimum, should give one pause. At a maximum could be exclusionary.
_Aristotle Smith
_Emeritus
Posts: 2136
Joined: Fri Aug 14, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:
For a generic grouping term to have any meaning, there has to be some commonality. At some point the differences become stark enough so that "We aren't the same type of X" becomes functionally equivalent to "We aren't X."


No not really. I am a human but I am not African or Asian. But I am still a human.


Irrelevant as the analogy is not comparable. This is like saying "I am a Christian, but not Baptist or Presbyterian." It might be true, it might not be true. You might be a Methodist, a Mormon, or an Orthodox Jew. For some values the sentence will still be true, for others it won't.

Jason Bourne wrote:I was simply stating what it means to claim to be a restoration. Other than the 19th century rhetoric that you quote below I think it is pretty clear the the LDS Church always considered itself to be a Christian denomination and also considered the rest of the Christian denominations Christian albeit lacking total truth. The dichotomy you set forth above is not one adopted in totality by the LDS Church.


I don't really care if it is adopted by the totality of the LDS church. The majority of male Mormons probably watch porn, does that mean that the LDS church officially allows porn viewing? The highest leaders and the scriptures of the church make it clear that all other so-called Christian churches aren't, and that only the LDS church has any claim to be the true church of Christ. Thus, the dichotomy exists as per Mormon scripture, sorry if you find JSH to be an inconvenience.

And, I think you would be surprised as to how many Mormons actually do believe in the dichotomy. It's hard for New Order Mormons to remember sometimes what more orthodox Mormons actually think. I got burned on this myself just a few weeks ago. I was talking about a book on the historical Jesus with my brother-in-law in the presence of my mother and sister. They all know I am not a Mormon anymore.

Keep in mind this was a purely scholarly book on the historical Jesus by Paula Fredricksen (who is a Jew). My mother and sister got really pissed and asked me to stop talking about it. My sister stormed out of the room when I did not stop, with my mother following behind. I found out later why they were pissed, it's because I no longer believe in the same Jesus as they do, their words, not mine. It was just a big wake up call for me. As much as New Order Mormons and liberal Mormons like to pretend otherwise, there is a vast gulf between Christianity and Mormons, and that gulf is set up and maintained to a large degree by Mormons.

Look, I would LOVE for this gulf to go away. It would make my life a lot easier. But I can't pretend that "we're all Christians" when everything Mormons do says I'm not. I'm sorry it's really hard to sing cumbaya and pretend like we're all on the same team.

The bottom line is that I really don't have much of a problem when Mormons claim they are Christians. It's the corrollary of that statement, that I most certainly am not a Christian (at least not one that counts), that really pisses me off.
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Hoops »


My mother and sister got really pissed and asked me to stop talking about it. My sister stormed out of the room when I did not stop, with my mother following behind. I found out later why they were pissed, it's because I no longer believe in the same Jesus as they do, their words, not mine.

Any chance you can put this Thanksgiving on YouTube for us?
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _stemelbow »

consiglieri wrote:Actually, I didn't see anything Jersey Girl got wrong, Stemmy Ol' Pal.


I didn't know you've ever thought of me as a pal, what with all the harsh words you've used to attack me. That's nice to know.

Anyway, i can see how her post can be read sans errors. I suppose I just read it differently. For instance when she said to LDS salvation is like unto resurrection, i felt it necessary to clarify that for LDS Telestial glory is actual glory being added to people--in this sense saved to LDS is much more than the EV concept of resurrection. Sometimes being so technical causes some confusion in conversation, i suppose, and sometimes lacking the technical explanation and caveat helps to minimize confusion. For you, it was not necessary, it seems, for me it was. Ah well...you've been more prone to argue against me, while I haven't been so with you. That's how we roll I guess.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Post Reply