Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_stemelbow]

Because I've given it several times.

I believe I saw you say once that a Christian is defined as one who is saved. Forgive me if I can't see that has helpful at all. Every single person will have to consult you to know saved status or something.

Any religion that teaches contrary to essential Christian doctrine is not a Christian religion. For me: Trinity (Deity of Christ within the Trinity), total depravity. It's one thing to believe these things yet not be able to adequately understand them. It is quite another to deny them, as Mormonism does.

K. So for you part of the definition of being a Christian is acceptance of the Trinity explanation, but not really acceptance because some people don't understand it so they are still Christian, well if they say they are, but Mormonism can't be Christian because it denies the Trinity explanation--at least in part? Is that right? Wowzers.

I would add

Ouch. There's more?

that the picture on Christ's atoning death still seems a bit muddled. Contrast that with RCC's position, but there really is no comparison. And, Mormon practice may not align terribly well with its doctrinal stance, which, at a minimum, should give one pause. At a maximum could be exclusionary.

Okay so added to the definition is that one must have an unmuddled view of the Christ's atoning death? And the standard of having an unmuddled view of Christ's atoning death is the RCC position?

Can you type this all up into one succinct statement or coherent paragraph? I'd be much obliged.

[_Jersey Girl]

stem

i felt it necessary to clarify that for LDS Telestial glory is actual glory being added to people

"actual glory being added to people"

Again, what does that mean?

[_consiglieri]

Ah well...you've been more prone to argue against me, while I haven't been so with you.

Only because you are wrong more often than I.















;^)

[_Analytics]

What’s in a name?
That which we call a Christian
By any other name
Would be just as bitchin’!

[_Buffalo]

I've been thinking about a simple way to qualify a religion as Christian or not Christian. I think the best way would be to determine the extent to which the religion is Christ-centric. How emphasized is Jesus? How much time is spent talking about him? Is he central to ideas about salvation, or are other things more emphasized or discussed more often?

I think that might be a better method than talking about whether or not Jesus is uncreated.

[_consiglieri]

What’s in a name?
That which we call a Christian
By any other name
Would be just as bitchin’!

It is the east and Analytics is the sun!

I also told my neighbor about the efforts the Mormon Church has been going through in the last 20-30 years to promote the idea that they are Christian, including the new subtitle on the Book of Mormon.


It is amazing how free I am with information now that I am not trying to convert anybody.

While I can understand on the one hand Mormons not wanting for people to think they don't believe in Christ, I do think it has become an unhealthy preoccupation for Mormons to want to be "included" among the "Christian denominations."

This has led to an unfortunate deemphasis of many doctrines and teachings peculiarly Mormon.

We are in danger of vanilla-ing ourselves out of existence.

Or, in peculiarly Mormon terms, of heeding the mocking from the great and spacious building and leaving the rod of iron to wander in the mist.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_beastie]

Why do some posters have difficulty using the label "Christian heresy" to describe Mormonism? Or is everyone ok with that?

I described Mormonism as Christian heresy in this post:

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=487608#p487608

I think it best fits my evaluation of the doctrines contained in Mormonism.

A little wiki def:

Heresy (from Greek αίρεση, which originally meant "choice") is a controversial or novel change to a system of beliefs, especially a religion, that conflicts with established dogma.

I admit I stole the idea from you!

I think Christian heresy fits, as well.

I know that it has negative connotations, but LDS may be asking for a bit much for mainstreamers to categorize them in a neutral or positive way when LDS themselves say that mainstreamers are in a state of apostasy. I don't think heresy is any more negative than apostasy.

Heresy is a good idea because it fits, historically speaking, how the term has been used. If folks click on the ink I provided they'll see that these are groups that do accept Jesus as Savior, by and large, but have rejected the Nicean interpretation of the godhead. That describes Mormonism quite well, in my view.

By using the term CHRISTIAN heresy, one is recognizing that it is a Christian sect. But the term heresy recognizes the Nicean tradition of mainstream Christianity.

[_stemelbow]

stem

"actual glory being added to people"

Again, what does that mean?

Well think of it this way, if you would.

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

--Rom. 8:30

And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified

--john 12:23

one more for effect:

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together

--Rom 8:17

Hopefully that helps a little. As it is salvation, meaning not exaltation, but those exalted are also included, is glorifying people.

Here are some definitions of the greek form of glorify:

to think, suppose, be of opinion

2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate

3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour

4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour

a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent

b) to make renowned, render illustrious

1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledged

Hope that helps.

[_stemelbow]

Only because you are wrong more often than I.

I'm sure that's the case. This brings up something interesting though. What's the point of disagreement. All too often its not so much disagreement on points, but disagreement on persons. With added explanation and understanding, often, two sides agree far more on certain points than they often give each other credit for. Not unlike you and I, I'm sure (although I maintain I agree with you far more than you me, for some odd reason) Well I kinda know the reason and so do you.

[_beastie]

I think we're talking past each other.

When I say LDS are Christian, I don't mean that they agree with all of mainstream Christian theology or vice versa. What I mean is that when looking at the classifications of major religions, Mormonism belongs in the Christian classification.

It's obviously a western religion. It's obviously an Abrahamic religion. So is it Islamic? Of course not. It is Judaic? No. Is it Christian? Yes.

Christianity started out as a breakaway sect of Judaism nearly 2000 years ago. Jesus, the son of the Virgin Mary and her husband Joseph, but conceived through the Holy Spirit, was bothered by some of the practices within his native Jewish faith and began preaching a different message of God and religion. During his travels he was joined by twelve disciples who followed him in his journeys and learned from him. He performed many miracles during this time and related many of his teachings in the form of parables. Among his best known sayings are to "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek." At one point he revealed that he was the Son of God sent to Earth to save humanity from our sins. This he did by being crucified on the cross for his teachings. He then rose from the dead and appeared to his disciples and told them to go forth and spread his message.

Since Christianity and Judaism share the same history up to the time of Jesus Christ, they are very similar in many of their core beliefs. There are two primary differences. One is that Christians believe in original sin and that Jesus died in our place to save us from that sin. The other is that Jesus was fully human and fully God and as the Son of God is part of the Holy Trinity: God the Father, His Son, and the Holy Spirit. All Christians believe in heaven and that those who sincerely repent their sins before God will be saved and join Him in heaven. Belief in hell and satan varies among groups and individuals.

There are a multitude of forms of Christianity which have developed either because of disagreements on dogma, adaptation to different cultures, or simply personal taste. For this reason there can be a great difference between the various forms of Christianity they may seem like different religions to some people.

http://www.omsakthi.org/religions.html