Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_karl61]

Oy. Okay. You win. I give up. You have battered me into submission. Christianity is a mixed up muddled up world where nothing is as it seems. You've caught me. You've figured out the secret that has escaped millions of people and you should be lauded for your insight that only the best and brightest have deciphered.

You tend to retreat to snarky comments when asked questions. Although I'm sure you'll deny it, I think it's because you've run out of answers.

So did God look into the future and see that one day I would no longer believe, so even though, in all sincerity and belief, I accepted JC as my Savior, I wasn't saved?

Hi Beastie: maybe you could review some of C.S. Lewis's thoughts on Christianity.

I thought about that after reading this article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... ORDS=lewis

I think I should read it to. I think I read parts before

[_cksalmon]

So when I accepted JC as my Savior, with all sincerity, I wasn't really saved after all? I was never "one of us"?

I'll go further, beastie. I will stipulate as a given that you actually accepted Jesus as your savior, with all sincerity, if you can explain to me how that acceptance is consonant with your, as I take it, equally-sincere profession of utter disbelief in the Christian God that you, arguendo, sincerely accepted as your God and Savior.

But, I find that to be illogical, personally.

That means there is something more to being saved than just accepting JC as one's Savior.

But, you actually disbelieve in the Christian God, right. In Jesus as God and Savior? I wouldn't say there's something more to it, necessarily, in the sense that I think you mean. But you don't believe that, right? You don't actually accept JC as your Savior.

So, no, much as I like reading your posts, and I do, I would say, without any hesitation, that you were never "one of us," based wholly on your profession of disbelief in the Christian God.

I don't find that particularly controversial. Do you?

[_beastie]

I'll go further, beastie. I will stipulate as a given that you actually accepted Jesus as your savior, with all sincerity, if you can explain to me how that acceptance is consonant with your, as I take it, equally-sincere profession of utter disbelief in the Christian God that you, arguendo, sincerely accepted as your God and Savior.

But, I find that to be illogical, personally.

Seriously?

Do you find it equally illogical that I was a sincere believer in Mormonism for fifteen years and now I no longer believe?

But, you actually disbelieve in the Christian God, right. In Jesus as God and Savior? I wouldn't say there's something more to it, necessarily, in the sense that I think you mean. But you don't believe that, right? You don't actually accept JC as your Savior.

So, no, much as I like reading your posts, and I do, I would say, without any hesitation, that you were never "one of us," based wholly on your profession of disbelief in the Christian God.

I don't find that particularly controversial. Do you?

This is exactly what Mormons sometimes say when someone loses faith in the church. “You never really believed in the first place.”

Which is utter bullocks.

People change. People’s beliefs change. Do you really find that difficult to grasp?

Although I don’t remember the exact date (although I do remember I was folding laundry while watching the 700 club), I’m going to guess it was 1995, because that was right around the time I lost faith in the LDS church.

In 1995, I still believed in God. I believed in Christ. I just lost belief in Mormonism in particular.

I spent the next couple of years searching for God outside of Mormonism. I visited various Christian churches. I prayed for help and guidance.

It was in that mindset that I accepted JC as my Savior.

In 1995, was I saved or not?

[_cksalmon]

Seriously?

Yes, seriously.

Do you find it equally illogical that I was a sincere believer in Mormonism for fifteen years and now I no longer believe?

Your comparison misses the mark. The illogicality I've identified does not inhere in the fact that you were a sincere believer in Mormonism for fifteen years and now no longer believe in Mormonism. Rather, the illogicality I've identified is that you somehow believe you are saved, under the aegis of "evangelical Christianity," though you now deny the existence of the "evangelical Christian" God.

Of course, you also deny the existence of the Mormon God, right?

I would find it equally illogical if you claimed that you were saved, Mormon-style, while denying the existence of the Mormon God, the Mormon Plan of Salvation, etc. That's the point of comparison, here, is it not?

That seems straightforward to me.

This is exactly what Mormons sometimes say when someone loses faith in the church. “You never really believed in the first place.”

Which is utter bullocks.

Well, I trust you don't think I'm going to exchange my own worldview and presuppositions for yours in order to critique my own.

People change. People’s beliefs change. Do you really find that difficult to grasp?

I don't find it difficult to grasp at all. I sincerely believe it. And I sincerely believe your personal account of it. I don't for a moment believe you're lying about anything, beastie.

In 1995, was I saved or not?

My assumption is that you were not. I have imperfect knowledge, however, and am open to correction.

[_beastie]

Your comparison misses the mark. The illogicality I've identified does not inhere in the fact that you were a sincere believer in Mormonism for fifteen years and now no longer believe in Mormonism. Rather, the illogicality I've identified is that you somehow believe you are saved, under the aegis of "evangelical Christianity," though you now deny the existence of the "evangelical Christian" God.

Of course I don't believe I'm saved or not saved. I'm an atheist. I'm asking what people who DO believe in the EV concept of God think about whether or not I was saved.

Hoops earlier stated that being a Christian meant one was forgiven for ALL one's sins - past, present and future. I am now guilty of the sin of disbelief... but I was forgiven as of 1995.

Of course, you also deny the existence of the Mormon God, right?

I lack any belief in anything supernatural at all, including godbeings.

I don't find it difficult to grasp at all. I sincerely believe it. And I sincerely believe your personal account of it. I don't for a moment believe you're lying about anything, beastie.

Thank you. You're a good guy to not take this personally.

My assumption is that you were not. I have imperfect knowledge, however, and am open to correction.

Thank you for your direct answer.

In 1995 I still believed in the God of Christianity. I still believed in Jesus as the Savior. I no longer believed in Mormonism and was returning to the protestant influence of my youth.

I did exactly what the televangelist encouraged me to do. I prayed and told God, in all sincerity, that I accepted JC as my Savior.

And yet I was not saved.

[_Hoops]

You tend to retreat to snarky comments when asked questions. Although I'm sure you'll deny it, I think it's because you've run out of answers.

So did God look into the future and see that one day I would no longer believe, so even though, in all sincerity and belief, I accepted JC as my Savior, I wasn't saved?

I tend to retreat to snarky comments when I am continually asked to defend or propose something I don't believe. I've given you answers. You've chosen to completely ignore. I can't do much about that.

I'm with Mr. Salmon. You want me to give you some kind of cosmic answer about your salvation,your eternal destiny based on my belief, when you have first accepted Christ (not necessary to debate what that means) then second not only do you turn ambivalent but contrary to that belief. This is something you (and I'm assuming you are asking in a somewhat hypothetical way, despite it's peculiarity to your situation) and your God need work out. I have no idea if you're saved or not. This is PRECISELY why one can not make that kind of judgement - on you, a Mormon, a JW, whatever.

I have said REPEATEDLY that I am not talking about any single person. I'm quite confident plenty of Mormons are Saved - if you'll remember I think the definition of a Christian is ONE whose sins are forgiven. It has little to do with being a Mormon, a baptist, or a RCC. I am talking about the LDS religion. It does not teach Christian doctrine, that makes it non=Christian. Yet you consistently want me to claim that Mormons are not Christian. I have never said that, ZI'm not saying that now, and I doubt I will say that in the future. I don't know ANYONE who DOES say that. I have no idea who is or is not. I don't know if you are or not.

Do you have any idea what we/I mean by freedom in Christ? Does that make any sense to you?

I just spent a few moments on LDS.org and Mormon.org. Those two sites proudly proclaim EXACTLY what I'm talking about. So I renew my call - if that is not docgtrine, what is? Where is it? What those two sites have to say about Christ and His work are nonChristian. Or perhaps, I've got it wrong because it doesn't get into too many specifics. But, I can only go by what it tells me.

[_beastie]

I did exactly what EVs say you have to do to be saved. And I was 100% sincere.

So if I wasn't saved in 1995, the EVs are teaching something grossly incorrect.

Which isn't a problem for me. I already believe you're teaching something incorrect. But it is a problem for EVs. Or should be, as much as the inconsistencies of Mormonism should be a problem for Mormons. But we know how that goes.

Perhaps being a Christian really means being forgiven of ALL your sins, past, present, and future, with the exception of the sin of disbelief. After 1995, I could have gone on to be a serial killer, a pedophile, an abuser, or Hitler himself, and I would have still been saved.

But I committed the one sin God cannot forgive. Disbelief.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie

In 1995, was I saved or not?

cksalmon

My assumption is that you were not. I have imperfect knowledge, however, and am open to correction.

WHAT??

[_Hoops]

Hoops earlier stated that being a Christian meant one was forgiven for ALL one's sins - past, present and future. I am now guilty of the sin of disbelief... but I was forgiven as of 1995.

Yes, that's what I stated. I stand by that. I don't know what God wants to do with one who decidedly turns against Him. How would I know? Is that really important in determining if LDS is Christian or not?

Okay, seems to be to you. Fair question. I stand by my claim, which I believe is completely and fully supported Biblically, that your sins, past, present, and future are forgiven. I believe this because Christ is enough. He's enough for me and He's enough for you. I'll add that repentance is not what I'm assuming (based on nothing more that our interaction here, so I could be completely wrong) you think it is. Or what it is on LDS/Mormon.org. Repentance is an intellectual/emotional/spiritual assent (right word? I think so...?) that Jesus is God. It has little to do with being sorry for your sins, or constantly keeping a checklist of having committed this sin or that sin and then having to ask forgiveness for each one - and God help us if we forget just one. And, no, that is not what the RCC confessional is, so don't bother. See the verse that LDS base consistently appeal to in Mt....um...17 is it? You will note that peter said nothing about being sorry, shoot, he didn't even mention his sin. Yet it was upon that confession that Jesus said He would build His church. That is significant. There is oodles more, but you get my point. I'm hopeful anyway.

In addition, though you stand forgiven, God is also Justice and Mercy. What He does with a Christian who explicitly and emphatically answers opposite of Peter's confession I don't know.

[_Jersey Girl]

beastie

In 1995 I still believed in the God of Christianity. I still believed in Jesus as the Savior. I no longer believed in Mormonism and was returning to the protestant influence of my youth.

I did exactly what the televangelist encouraged me to do. I prayed and told God, in all sincerity, that I accepted JC as my Savior.

And yet I was not saved.

Yes, you were saved, beastie.