Mormonism is not "Christianity"

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_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

Jason Bourne wrote:Again I understand the divergence. But here is the problem I have. The history of how what is now generally accepted as the teachings on the nature of the Godhead from the days of Christ forward have been fraught with debates, posturing, politicking and have taken hundreds of years to develop. And while I am not an expert on all the twists and turns of trinity theology I do believe there are still diverging and competing views today about this interesting topic. Just what is the nature of God. I hardly think, and I believe most Orthodox Christian theologians would agree, that you cannot get what is considered Orthodox from the Bible alone. And there are contradicting statements in the Bible about the Godhead and what it means that there are three persons called God yet still considered One God.


I would agree that Christian trinitarianism is not to be found in the Bible. Also, Mormon tri-theism is also not to be found in the Bible. As you point out the Bible makes many statements that at least appear to be contradictory, if not actually contradictory. Both orthodox Christians and Mormon attempt to solve this problem, but they go about it in fundamentally different ways.

The crux of the problem is that at the time of Jesus you have the following: 1) Jewish belief at that time was strictly monotheistic, and the Old Testament was read to be supporting strict monotheism and 2) The New Testament talks about Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as being diving. That's the conundrum you have to solve, after that most of the contradictions become details.

The orthodox strategy was to preserve as much of the Jewish belief as possible. Trinity attempts to preserve strict monotheism as much as possible so that Christians can still be strict monotheists. A lot of the technicalities of the trinity are attempts to shore up this goal. While there was a lot of bickering, the overarching goal for the orthodox Christians was to preserve that Jewish heritage. Much of the early Christian heresies (such as Arianism and gnosticism) were heresies precisly because they chose to deviate from that Jewish heritage.

The Mormon strategy is an attempt to get behind the Jewish belief to an earlier belief. This makes sense for Mormons because the Mosaic law is seen as a "lesser law" and the Jews a people with "lesser light and knowledge." Thus, the model for Mormons is to be pre-Mosaic. Mormons correctly picked up on a henotheism in the book of Genesis. This leads to tri-theism being o.k., because Mormons would see strict monotheism as not especially necessary to preserve. This is also what makes things like the King Follett discourse work, there can be as many gods as you want because strict monotheism is not an overarching goal.

I also think this attempt to get back to the earliest forms of worship in the Bible is also what lead to polygamy, since Genesis tends to have the most positive outlook on polygamy in the entire Bible.
_Yoda

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Yoda »

Aristotle wrote:I also think this attempt to get back to the earliest forms of worship in the Bible is also what lead to polygamy, since Genesis tends to have the most positive outlook on polygamy in the entire Bible.



Actually, the biggest problem I have had with polygamy from a doctrinal point of view is that it is only really addressed in the Old Testament, and seems to be part of a lesser law.
_madeleine
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _madeleine »

Honestly, with Mormons making lists of what makes them Christian, why not just become Christian?
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_beastie
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _beastie »

madeleine wrote:Honestly, with Mormons making lists of what makes them Christian, why not just become Christian?


They think they already are.

My LDS father heard yet another talking head on a news channel proclaim that Mormonism isn't Christian. The commentator also made some outright false statements about the religion - like they don't think Jesus is divine, but rather a prophet like Joseph Smith.

I am very critical and even, at times, cynical about much about Mormonism. But I really dislike it when outright false statements are made about the religion.

I was a Mormon for fifteen years. During that time, I never had any confusion about whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, and whether or not He was the Savior of Mankind. The church clearly teaches those concepts.

In my eyes, that makes Mormonism Christian. Yes, it may be heterodox Christianity, but to deny that it's Christian makes people believe goofy things like what my father heard on TV this week. It makes people believe that Mormons just deny the divinity of JC or his saving atonement. And that's just false.

My parents are fervent democrats like me (yes, odd for active LDS), but we are all very interested in the Republican nomination. Given how the Republican party tends to follow an orderly pattern which, by all rights, should ordain Romney as the candidate, I truly believe that if Romney doesn't get the nomination it is for one reason and one reason only - Mormonism.

I view it as a sort of a bellwether test to see if the church's public relations efforts of the past few decades has had an effect.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Yoda

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Yoda »

beastie wrote:
madeleine wrote:Honestly, with Mormons making lists of what makes them Christian, why not just become Christian?


They think they already are.

My LDS father heard yet another talking head on a news channel proclaim that Mormonism isn't Christian. The commentator also made some outright false statements about the religion - like they don't think Jesus is divine, but rather a prophet like Joseph Smith.

I am very critical and even, at times, cynical about much about Mormonism. But I really dislike it when outright false statements are made about the religion.

I was a Mormon for fifteen years. During that time, I never had any confusion about whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, and whether or not He was the Savior of Mankind. The church clearly teaches those concepts.

In my eyes, that makes Mormonism Christian. Yes, it may be heterodox Christianity, but to deny that it's Christian makes people believe goofy things like what my father heard on TV this week. It makes people believe that Mormons just deny the divinity of JC or his saving atonement. And that's just false.

My parents are fervent democrats like me (yes, odd for active LDS), but we are all very interested in the Republican nomination. Given how the Republican party tends to follow an orderly pattern which, by all rights, should ordain Romney as the candidate, I truly believe that if Romney doesn't get the nomination it is for one reason and one reason only - Mormonism.

I view it as a sort of a bellwether test to see if the church's public relations efforts of the past few decades has had an effect.


THANK YOU, BEASTIE!!!!
_Aristotle Smith
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _Aristotle Smith »

liz3564 wrote:Actually, the biggest problem I have had with polygamy from a doctrinal point of view is that it is only really addressed in the Old Testament, and seems to be part of a lesser law.


Again you have to be careful. The Old Testament as a whole is actually ambiguous about polygamy. The problem is that when you focus solely on Genesis, you get the rosiest picture that the Old Testament has to offer on polygamy. If you look at Deuteronomy and Kings, the Bible blames the fall of the united kingdom, at least on part, on Solomon's polygamy. David's polygamy is also highly ambivalent.

My point is NOT that the Old Testament is some bastion of anti-polygamy thinking, it isn't. My point is that I thinking focusing on trying to restore pre-law of Moses practice leads to a reliance on Genesis, which leads to a rosy picture of polygamy.
_mentalgymnast

Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _mentalgymnast »

beastie wrote:
I was a Mormon for fifteen years. During that time, I never had any confusion about whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, and whether or not He was the Savior of Mankind. The church clearly teaches those concepts.

In my eyes, that makes Mormonism Christian. Yes, it may be heterodox Christianity, but to deny that it's Christian makes people believe goofy things like what my father heard on TV this week. It makes people believe that Mormons just deny the divinity of JC or his saving atonement. And that's just false.


Just like I said earlier, what's the big deal about accepting Mormons as Christians?

http://LDS.org/library/display/0,4945,90-1-10-1,00.html

I suppose that it's the adversarial stuff that goes on that makes conversations like this kind of a waste of time that could be spent on something else. I think that it's pretty obvious, again, that Mormons are Christians.

The church's position is firmly in the non-adversarial arena. The church finds value and purpose in all of the major world religions.

http://ldsfaq.BYU.edu/viewEM.aspx?number=202

But for some dang reason, which I think most members of the LDS church find difficult to fathom/understand, there are those who are out to get the Mormons and turn them into non-Christians.

That's a fruitless enterprise, but carry on.

Big hugs?

Regards,
MG
_madeleine
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _madeleine »

beastie wrote:
madeleine wrote:Honestly, with Mormons making lists of what makes them Christian, why not just become Christian?


They think they already are.

My LDS father heard yet another talking head on a news channel proclaim that Mormonism isn't Christian. The commentator also made some outright false statements about the religion - like they don't think Jesus is divine, but rather a prophet like Joseph Smith.

I am very critical and even, at times, cynical about much about Mormonism. But I really dislike it when outright false statements are made about the religion.

I was a Mormon for fifteen years. During that time, I never had any confusion about whether or not Jesus was the Son of God, and whether or not He was the Savior of Mankind. The church clearly teaches those concepts.

In my eyes, that makes Mormonism Christian. Yes, it may be heterodox Christianity, but to deny that it's Christian makes people believe goofy things like what my father heard on TV this week. It makes people believe that Mormons just deny the divinity of JC or his saving atonement. And that's just false.

My parents are fervent democrats like me (yes, odd for active LDS), but we are all very interested in the Republican nomination. Given how the Republican party tends to follow an orderly pattern which, by all rights, should ordain Romney as the candidate, I truly believe that if Romney doesn't get the nomination it is for one reason and one reason only - Mormonism.

I view it as a sort of a bellwether test to see if the church's public relations efforts of the past few decades has had an effect.


My statement was not meant to say Mormons are not Christians. Mormonism, the religion, is not Christian. Many LDS individuals seek to be disciples of Jesus Christ. I don't see that as a negative thing, at all, and I would never say to anyone who has this desire that they are not Christian.

My comment was meant to say, if LDS are always trying find all the many ways the the non-Christian beliefs of Mormonism meet traditional Christian beliefs, why are LDS beliefs necessary at all? Why not just accept teachings that have been around since the beginning, and are being mined in an effort to prove something about the LDS religion?

Seems like a rather difficult method. While I was raised LDS, I left in my late teens, and was for the majority of my life atheist. So, I don't have the experience of trying to make my Mormon beliefs fit into a traditional Christian mold. I just rejected it all, entirely, from top to bottom, and left. From where I sit, I just think, why bother making it so hard? Just leave for what you are trying so hard to be.
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI
_thews
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _thews »

Jason Bourne wrote:So I wonder now,it seems to me the this view by Thews is rather different than that of Hoops and a few others. Hoops does not seem to believe in eternal security and his comments about when one knows they are saved are not all that different than a Mormon might make. Where does that place his Christianity?

Jason, attempting to define my "place" in Christianity isn't necessary. It's defined by the doctrine I believe in, which is only the Bible to include the New Testament. If I also placed faith in the doctrine of Joseph Smith, I would define my belief as Mormon or LDS. I really don't get your point, but, like Liz, see your internal bias being projected in your argument. Without wishing to discuss supposed parallels of what the Book of Mormon contains (monotheism) vs. the Book of Abraham (henotheism), the doctrine is not Christian, and Christianity rejects Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God. If you wish to go to a Mormon church and reject some of its teachings while accepting other parts, that's your choice, but it doesn't justify a redefinition of the doctrine a "Christian" church is defined by, because Christian churches don't believe/use Mormon doctrine and reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
_jon
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Re: Mormonism is not "Christianity"

Post by _jon »

I think that Mormonism could have claim on being 'Christian' were it not for the fact that it went to great lengths to articulate to anyone who would listen that Mormons were 'different', 'peculiar', 'in the world but not of the world', 'the one true religion' etc etc etc.
Mormons believe that God told Joseph Smith that all the Christian churches at the time were 'an abomination'.

Now Mormonism wants to cuddle up and be Christian just like everyone else. Why? What's the problem? Money running out?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
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