Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_Jason Bourne]

CkSalmon

I have to say I respect you and your measured comments. I will also qualify some of my next comments by saying that I may be somewhat ignorant about Calvinism and could change my thoughts on further enlightenment. That said I have to say that from what I do understand about Calvinism I cannot think of a more abominable theological system of thought. It makes the God we worship into a capricious monster. Really, I cannot imagine a being creating sentient beings, picking those he would save from the start, condemning the rest to hell and still putting them through this miserable and difficult earth life.

I mean really, if we have no choice in the matter why not just put those in Heaven he wants to save and not even create the rest.

Also I have to say the hoops (no not our Hoops) one has to jump through with someone like beasties belief and now lack of to say she was never saved is really theological gymnastics to avoid the works issue. It is more and more clear to me that the saved by grace only dogma requires works in there somewhere. Perseverence requires works. If a saint is to persevere they need to obey, stay faithful etc. I guess the only way a Calvinist gets around that is that God keeps you persevering.

Beastie, you never really believed you see. Because God did not predestine you and your salvation was not irresistible. Else you would not be an atheist now.

But who knows. I have pretty much determined that Mormonism is not the one true church. I see tons of issues in Christianity in general but I still feel compelled and want to maintain faith in Jesus Christ. There are days I feel I could be an atheist or at least agnostic. But I still want to maintain my faith. Maybe I am predestined to do so?

Who the hell really knows.

[_consiglieri]

I understand LDS teaching is, in Catholic terms, that all have an immaculate conception. (And somehow around age 8 that is lost, but that's another discussion I think.)

I think this is an area not terribly well thought-out in Mormon circles, and would agree that many Mormons would probably espouse something similar to your understanding, Madeleine.

The problem is that, when you actually apply uniquely LDS scripture to the issue (as in the Moses quote above), I think it would be more accurate to say that children are conceived and born in sin, but that the Atonement of Jesus Christ works to absolve them of that sin until such time as they are able to make choices for themselves.

In this way, sin-cleansing baptism is deferred in Mormon doctrine until the "age of accountability."

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_consiglieri]

That said I have to say that from what I do understand about Calvinism I cannot think of a more abominable theological system of thought. It makes the God we worship into a capricious monster.

I am sure CKS is aware of this type of response to the belief in predeterminism, Jason.

On the other hand, it is possible CKS would respond that God's Sovereignty is diminished to the same extent we subtract from his divine and omniscient Will by positing human ability to affect the present and future.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Could Christ save someone who didn't possess or profess faith in Him?

V/R
Dr. Cam

Anyone?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

If anyone has any doubt the religion is complete and utter BS, this thread should alleviate that problem. Again, I'm getting that surreal feeling one gets being at a Star Trek convention with a bunch of nerds all standing around discussing the show as though the characters and events are real.

... Morons.

+100

[_consiglieri]

Hello,

Could Christ save someone who didn't possess or profess faith in Him?

V/R
Dr. Cam

Anyone?

I believe Jesus' salvation claims were exclusive to those having faith in him.

I am the way, the truth and the light. No man cometh unto the Father but by me. John 14:6

But at least in Mormonism, everybody gets a chance to hear about Jesus . . .

I am pretty sure that's not what you wanted to hear, but then I'm the guy who holds out hope for Islamic terrorists in the afterlife. ;^)

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Jason Bourne]

I am sure CKS is aware of this type of response to the belief in predeterminism, Jason.

No doubt because it is a logical conclusion.

On the other hand, it is possible CKS would respond that God's Sovereignty is diminished to the same extent we subtract from his divine and omniscient Will by positing human ability to affect the present and future.

All the Best!

Yes I know all about the creature creator we are just crummy pieces of clay to be dashed to smithereens at the whim of the potters hand. Problem is clay is not sentient, self aware and able to think and feel emotions and pain. It is not able to suffer and have great joy. If there is a God that created us he made us this way. To already determine who is saved and who will suffer than put such beings through such a hard life just is horrific at least on its face.

But I understand that God is Holy and His ways are above ours and who are we to question God. This past year we have had some very horrific things happen in our family. And when I get mad at God about it I keep hearing what God says to Job... I am God and you are just a puny man. But this does not set well still all the time.

On the other hand I said I can see how people come the the Calvinistic conclusions. Given all the random pain and suffering in this world it seems that there could be a God like the Calvinist God in charge.

[_consiglieri]

[quoteYes I know all about the creature creator we are just crummy pieces of clay to be dashed to smithereens at the whim of the potters hand. Problem is clay is not sentient, self aware and able to think and feel emotions and pain. It is not able to suffer and have great joy. If there is a God that created us he made us this way. To already determine who is saved and who will suffer than put such beings through such a hard life just is horrific at least on its face.

I only bring this up because years ago CKS and I had a rather involved conversation on this very subject. I think he admits it is a hard doctrine, though he believes it is biblical, and he is therefore bound to accept it.

One of the interesting things that came up was the idea of being "saved by grace alone." There are many evangelical Christians who tout this idea, but when it comes down to it, they do not really believe it.

Rather, they believe there is some act required in order to avert the damnation that otherwise awaits.

Calvinism, on the other hand, actually does believe in salvation by grace alone. It is ONLY through the grace of God that we (or at least some) are saved. There is nothing we can do to affect the divine Will which established salvation for some from the beginning.

Calvinism is "salvation by grace alone" in its pure form.

Of course, the flip-side is damnation by fiat.

It is not an easy doctrine, and I believe it challenges even its most ardent adherents.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I believe Jesus' salvation claims were exclusive to those having faith in him.

I understand the exclusivity claims, but that's not what I'm interested in knowing. Could Christ save someone who didn't possess or profess faith in Him?

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_consiglieri]

I believe Jesus' salvation claims were exclusive to those having faith in him.

I understand the exclusivity claims, but that's not what I'm interested in knowing. Could Christ save someone who didn't possess or profess faith in Him?

V/R
Dr. Cam

Well, that is a donkey of a different color!

And an interesting thought question, to boot.

On first blush, I would think a non-LDS Christian might feel forced into the position that he could, because of their generally unrestricted view of God's omnipotence.

Mormons on the other hand, not holding such an unrestricted view, might well answer that Jesus could not save someone who did not have faith in him, any more than God can force somebody to heaven against their will.

You might want to start a different thread on this subject alone.

It could prove interesting.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri