Mormonism is not "Christianity"

[_maklelan]

Speaking as the Calvinist that I am what I see is of course he can. Everyperson born is born and lives with out faith and at odds with God. It is only as a result of Gods saving that the possiblity of faith is opened to a human where upon he may believe. So it is possible.

However it is standard Calvinist observation that the faith does in fact happen and continue in those humans where God has made it possible. If in the end the human remains faithless then God did not in fact save even if it was possible that God could have done so. Gods decison to save does not depend upon humans nonexistent power to have faith.

So salvation is utterly arbitrary. Irrespective of our beliefs, actions, thoughts, or decisions, we all have the same odds when it comes to that great roll of the dice in the sky, correct?

[_huckelberry]

Could Christ save someone who didn't possess or profess faith in Him?

I believe Jesus' salvation claims were exclusive to those having faith in him.

I am the way, the truth and the light. No man cometh unto the Father but by me. John 14:6

But at least in Mormonism, everybody gets a chance to hear about Jesus . . .

-Consiglieri

Consiglieri, I am unsure why you feel the John quote completes the question. Perhaps I can propose a variation in thought. It really is not mine own only but it does vary from usual expection in some circles. I think that faith is fundamentally a true respect for truth, a true love of God and a consequent care for others. This is the truth and light that is Jesus. That and the sacrifice necessary to put this is action in a fallen world. I understand the Church and the fellowship of Christians to be a leading encouragement for these things,for all the world. It is the centeral main path of Gods action to save humans. however that light shines into the world where God may be growing faith beginnings in all sorts of people. I believe that what is started in the Church will find its fullfillment in a much larger body of people in the completion. As all life flows from God all people may be joined to that life in Jesus starting in a variety of ways.

I am not proposing an assurance all people will be so joined. The alternative of living with no connection to the truth and life in Jesus is clearly open to people as human history illustrates in its many dark events.

[_huckelberry]

Speaking as the Calvinist that I am what I see is of course he can. Everyperson born is born and lives with out faith and at odds with God. It is only as a result of Gods saving that the possiblity of faith is opened to a human where upon he may believe. So it is possible.

However it is standard Calvinist observation that the faith does in fact happen and continue in those humans where God has made it possible. If in the end the human remains faithless then God did not in fact save even if it was possible that God could have done so. Gods decison to save does not depend upon humans nonexistent power to have faith.

So salvation is utterly arbitrary. Irrespective of our beliefs, actions, thoughts, or decisions, we all have the same odds when it comes to that great roll of the dice in the sky, correct?

To say that salvation is irrespective of beliefs actions thought decsions is utterly ridiculous. Salvation is about loving truth God and your fellow humans. It is not a contest.

[_Milesius]

What would the heresiologists of the second and third centuries have called Mormonism?

Counterfeit Christianity

[_Milesius]

- Christology is not Christian

This means no one prior to about the middle of the third century CE was a Christian.

LOL. As if the Christians of the first few centuries were Mormons. The fact of the matter is that Holy Joe's final Christology bears no resemblance to the Christologies of the first few centuries, apart from subordinationism.

[_Simon Belmont]

LOL. As if the Christians of the first few centuries were Mormons. The fact of the matter is that [offensive material deleted] final Christology bears no resemblance to the Christologies of the first few centuries, apart from subordinationism.

You should read more about the early church fathers.

[_Milesius]

It is clear that God in three Persons has always been taught, including in scripture.

That is incorrect.

Mormons always seem to focus on the heresies of Arius.

Arius would have nothing to do with Mormonism.

Arius fled to the East when he was excommunicated by his bishop in the West, and his teachings were declared heretical.

Alexandria is also part of the East, Madeleine. And Arius was excommunicated for opposing the false and nonsensical teachings of his bishop, Alexander. (The thug, Athanasius, was his secretary and partisan.)

In the East, his teachings took hold and were very popular. The First Council of Nicaea met to address the heresies of Arius, all the bishops (about 300), except three, declared Arius a heretic. The Bishops of this council then put into writing the clear beliefs of Christianity, in order that it would be clear to all the faithful.

Some affirmed the creed only under duress and later disavowed it.

Mormons (and other non-Trinitarian groups) spin this to say, the First Council of Nicaea came up with new doctrine that did not exist, but this is not accurate or factual.

Actually, it is pretty accurate. While something like the trinitarianism of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed existed previously in the minds of dim bulbs like Alexander, it was not formalized until 381 (when the Holy Spirit was finally voted into the god-blob of "orthodoxy") and it is quite different than the trinitarianism of, say, Tertullian.

[_Milesius]

LOL. As if the Christians of the first few centuries were Mormons. The fact of the matter is that Holy Joe's final Christology bears no resemblance to the Christologies of the first few centuries, apart from subordinationism.

You should read more about the early church fathers.

You are a dullard Simon. If I stopped reading about them today, you'd still never catch up to me.

[_maklelan]

To say that salvation is irrespective of beliefs actions thought decsions is utterly ridiculous. Salvation is about loving truth God and your fellow humans. It is not a contest.

I never said it was a contest, and your statement doesn't really bear on my question. You are either saying that God's decision to save us is somehow influenced by our own words, actions, beliefs, etc., or it is not. If the former, then our works play a pivotal role in effecting our salvation. If the latter, then, as far as we are concerned, it is utterly arbitrary. To which soteriology do you hold? If you believe neither is true, then please explain.

[_huckelberry]

maklelan noted to my Calvinist comment,
"So salvation is utterly arbitrary. Irrespective of our beliefs, actions, thoughts, or decisions, we all have the same odds when it comes to that great roll of the dice in the sky, correct?"

Perhaps now after dinner I can make a more measured reply. I and most anybody else recognizes some tension here. For me the tension pushes me to ask why would people be chosen. I see no reason to believe it is dice rolling. I believe if one has any sort of belief in God it entails seeing God as acting with purpose. In a Calvinist view a person is not chosen because God is wowed by what a gift to God person A is. If one believes that they are the best of the best leading human parade it is natural to want God to recognize this an give appropriate awards. But if God sees instead problems and selfishness in all humans, if God sees people wanting to use the gifts they received from him to place themselves above others then God may not be interested giving rewards for superiority.

I think instead of rewarding or rolling dice God chooses in order to have people helping others. I think he chooses weak people and sinners in order that those weak sinners may move towards being saints ,to be a help to other, including the strong.

I do not at all believe that God chooses people just to be winners and get all the candy. I believe God is intending a transformation of the human race and that transformation involves the creation of a leading family or city of God. because that city of chosen is made up of all sorts of strong weak, smart, ignorant, good bad some of the help they are to the human race is by needing help from others who may not be believers.

I believe the life and death of Jesus is an example of what life should be that is an invitation to all humanity. God calls specific people to cary the torch and to be a light to all ther rest of the world.(both by success and failure to be a reflection of Jesus life and truth. I believe that when Christian fail they can be a goad to others to do better.

See Romans 11 , a vantage point one might read the whole New Testament from.