By that standard, the universe is evidence of... well... anything we can imagine.
Uh, no, they are not the same. The Bible makes the claim that God created the universe. The universe is evidence of a creator of some kind, nymphs, possibly. But some first cause.
Certainly, you don't really think that such reasoning can be accepted as being sound? Do you? Certainly you recognize that it isn't going to be convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe?
I missed this evidence on page two. Can you refer me to it? Was it Jesus being a historical figure because that is not evidence of god its just some evidence of some dude that died on a cross. Lots of people have died on crosses you know.
your wrong buddy.. Jesus as historical figure is evidence, because of what he said, we can weigh what he said, claiming to be one with God etc.. and then see if we trust what he said. Evidence.
here it is:
haha.. I didn't say faith was in 100% proof text, or even empirical data, that would be an atheist view. We would have to start a new thread for this but I think there is reasonable proof there is a God > I have "faith" that this evidential God is loving based on the evidence of love that is me and the desire to be loved > I think there is reasonable proof that this God is intelligent > I think there is reasonable proof that the old testament text is reliable, in that it has made it through history to us > I have reasonable proof that the New testament is reliable, meaning I believe we have most of, the jest of, what was written in antiquity > I think there is reasonable proof that Jesus was real and a rabbi > I have reasonable proof that he was crucified > I have reasonable proof that a group of jews thought something miraculous had happened and died for that belief > I have faith, and my eyes have been opened by a new birth, that these jews were telling the truth.
I got my definition from the practical observation of Christians in the wild.
Where is your evidence?
haha.. your like a dog on bone. when I was young I had this idea to gain my fathers favor. With me, my brothers and sisters together at lunch I would purpose a contest for my Dad to judge. Who can draw the best horse. They all loved the idea because everyone is artistic in my family. What they didn't know was that I had been practicing horses for a month straight and had planned this little event well ahead of time so that I would win. and of course I won. Even though deceptive, it made me feel good about myself. How long have you been drawing horses?
I've already said, I have reasonable evidences for my faith, I laid them out like on page two. I know you don't put stock in these evidences. But it is evidence non the less, whether it meets your standards or not. The original thread was discussion that faith had NO evidence needed. I refuted that, faith and belief (of a christianity) are based on evidences. These evidences are some times empirical, some subjective, some historical some spiritual a little bit of all. The argument your wanting to have will never work quit the way you want it. Because we both have a different standard our evidences have to meet. I need probability, you need God to slap you on the ass and apologize for all the evil things he does.
There are reasonable evidences that Paul and Jesus were real people. But that is NOT The basis of your faith. The Buddha was a real person - I presume you don't have any mystical beliefs about him based on that fact. Still waiting.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
mormonx wrote:wrong.. the universe works by laws, the universe, in the least, produces intelligence (except on this thread), the laws of the universe exist outside of the universe and are not dependent on the universe. So the conclusion we must come to is that there is intelligence (laws) that supersedes the universe. This does not leave us with whatever we can imagine. It leaves us with the weight of laws to contend with. Weight of something existing outside of the universe that must exist to form a universe.
I think this is one of the most ironic statements I have read on MDB.
mormonx, you claim there is a god. Where is the evidence?
I think this is a very simple question.
look above your head in what you quoted.. that is an evidence of a intelligence not dependent on matter. What were you looking for, God's green card.
By that standard, the universe is evidence of... well... anything we can imagine.
Uh, no, they are not the same. The Bible makes the claim that God created the universe. The universe is evidence of a creator of some kind, nymphs, possibly. But some first cause.
Certainly, you don't really think that such reasoning can be accepted as being sound? Do you? Certainly you recognize that it isn't going to be convincing to anyone who doesn't already believe?
Well, it's inevitable.
The Book of Mormon claims the Nephites came to the Americas. The Americas are a real place, so that means the Book of Mormon is true.
Again, you're engaging in logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that God created this universe. "B therefore A" is fallacious.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
There are reasonable evidences that Paul and Jesus were real people. But that is NOT The basis of your faith. The Buddha was a real person - I presume you don't have any mystical beliefs about him based on that fact. Still waiting.
Actually it is the largest basis of my faith... not only is their reasonable evidence of their historicity, there is reasonable evidence that we know what they said and wrote down, believed and did and died. reasonable evidence that Jesus claimed to be one with God, the son of God, and died because of that. Reasonable evidence that paul also put him in the same ontology as God. As did John in revelations and in other books... reasonable that "something" happened to Jesus's body, that it was not in the tomb. Reasonable evidence that this caused once faithful eyewitness jews to become martyrs for believing in this "resin" Jesus. Ya, that's a big part of my faith. But not limited to it, I also have the witness of the spirit that confirms in subjective evidences to me that I am a adopted child of God, that I am loved by God and forgiven.
mormonx wrote:the laws of the universe exist outside of the universe and are not dependent on the universe.
I'm afraid you're going to have to back that one up. I don't think that's the current understanding.
Truth doesn't change... Are you seriously telling me that Math depends on Matter to exist? You give me a hand full of "experts" and I'll give you a hand full.
mormonx wrote:your wrong buddy.. Jesus as historical figure is evidence, because of what he said, we can weigh what he said, claiming to be one with God etc.. and then see if we trust what he said. Evidence.
You can say the same about buddha or mohammad. People believe in their god because of what they said. Do you believe in buddha or mohammad. Do you consider their god to be real because they said so?
here it is:
haha.. I didn't say faith was in 100% proof text, or even empirical data, that would be an atheist view. We would have to start a new thread for this but I think there is reasonable proof there is a God > I have "faith" that this evidential God is loving based on the evidence of love that is me and the desire to be loved > I think there is reasonable proof that this God is intelligent > I think there is reasonable proof that the old testament text is reliable, in that it has made it through history to us > I have reasonable proof that the New testament is reliable, meaning I believe we have most of, the jest of, what was written in antiquity > I think there is reasonable proof that Jesus was real and a rabbi > I have reasonable proof that he was crucified > I have reasonable proof that a group of jews thought something miraculous had happened and died for that belief > I have faith, and my eyes have been opened by a new birth, that these jews were telling the truth.
You know Joseph Smith existed and a group of people believe something miraculous happened to him and they died for that belief. How come you don't believe in that? That is the same quality of "evidence" you are giving me.
mormonx wrote:Actually it is the largest basis of my faith... not only is their reasonable evidence of their historicity, there is reasonable evidence that we know what they said and wrote down, believed and did and died. reasonable evidence that Jesus claimed to be one with God, the son of God, and died because of that. Reasonable evidence that paul also put him in the same ontology as God. As did John in revelations and in other books... reasonable that "something" happened to Jesus's body, that it was not in the tomb. Reasonable evidence that this caused once faithful eyewitness jews to become martyrs for believing in this "resin" Jesus. Ya, that's a big part of my faith. But not limited to it, I also have the witness of the spirit that confirms in subjective evidences to me that I am a adopted child of God, that I am loved by God and forgiven.
Joseph Smith had eye witnesses to the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith died for the cause. Mormons recieve a spiritual confirmation of such evidences and they are adopted children of God. What makes you different then them? How can we know you are right and they are wrong when both of you say that you can know the truth by this spirit and yet you both get different answers.