What's the utility of faith?

[_Hoops]

The Book of Mormon claims the Nephites came to the Americas. The Americas are a real place, so that means the Book of Mormon is true.

Again, you're engaging in logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that God created this universe. "B therefore A" is fallacious.

That's not what I wrote. The universe testifies to a First Cause. Who or what that first cause could be nymphs, could be monkies, or could be something else. So what evidence do we have that explains or identifies that First Cause. The Bible is a good one.

[_Mad Viking]

By that standard, the universe is evidence of... well... anything we can imagine.

Uh, no, they are not the same.

Yes. Yes they are. I asked you for evidence of god's existence. Your response was a simple "The Universe Exists". That is a non-sequiter. By that standard, the universe is evidence for anything we can imagine.

The Bible makes the claim that God created the universe.

It sure does. So what?

The universe is evidence of a creator of some kind, nymphs, possibly. But some first cause.

How so?

[_Buffalo]

Truth doesn't change... Are you seriously telling me that Math depends on Matter to exist? You give me a hand full of "experts" and I'll give you a hand full.

There is no reason why the laws of the universe would apply in any other universes outside our own, if any exist. I'm not an expert on quantum physics, but I believe that is the current understanding.

[_Buffalo]

There are reasonable evidences that Paul and Jesus were real people. But that is NOT The basis of your faith. The Buddha was a real person - I presume you don't have any mystical beliefs about him based on that fact. Still waiting.

Actually it is the largest basis of my faith... not only is their reasonable evidence of their historicity, there is reasonable evidence that we know what they said and wrote down, believed and did and died. reasonable evidence that Jesus claimed to be one with God, the son of God, and died because of that. Reasonable evidence that paul also put him in the same ontology as God. As did John in revelations and in other books... reasonable that "something" happened to Jesus's body, that it was not in the tomb. Reasonable evidence that this caused once faithful eyewitness jews to become martyrs for believing in this "resin" Jesus. Ya, that's a big part of my faith. But not limited to it, I also have the witness of the spirit that confirms in subjective evidences to me that I am a adopted child of God, that I am loved by God and forgiven.

So where's your evidence for the supernatural parts? That's what I keep asking you. Even an atheist can accept some of the historical pieces you're laying down. That's irrelevant.

[_Buffalo]

The Book of Mormon claims the Nephites came to the Americas. The Americas are a real place, so that means the Book of Mormon is true.

Again, you're engaging in logical fallacy. You need to demonstrate that God created this universe. "B therefore A" is fallacious.

That's not what I wrote. The universe testifies to a First Cause. Who or what that first cause could be nymphs, could be monkies, or could be something else. So what evidence do we have that explains or identifies that First Cause. The Bible is a good one.

Demonstrate that the existence of the universe requires some sort of creator. Don't just assert - provide EVIDENCE.

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion, is this your version of the sacred grove? Or do you have 3 others?

I cannot swear that I tell it in minute detail the same every time. However, for forty years I have told the same story.

The proof some crave is the reality of who I was before and the reality of who I was after. There was nothing else that contributed to the event other than my wanting to have rights with God. As I would describe it now, as it was, back then I knew nothing. He gave me my righteousness.
Which translates to having rights with God in his kingdom or the power of the Holy Ghost and the tutorial of God that comes with it.

My life has manifested sufficient proofs that my original claim has merit.

You guys only need study The Apocalrock to see the salvation of our God. This was prepared from before the foundation of the earth to convince all nations. The world will mock and consider it a think of naught only to further justify the consumption decreed upon all the earth.

The world has chosen science for their confusion of face. There is anthropological, archaeological, verifiable, every day observable, proof to ponder, that ye may wonder.

Faith no more, hard evidence, in your face science guys. Read it and bleed your putrid highmindedness.

[_mormonx]

You can say the same about buddha or mohammad. People believe in their god because of what they said. Do you believe in buddha or mohammad. Do you consider their god to be real because they said so?

You know Joseph Smith existed and a group of people believe something miraculous happened to him and they died for that belief. How come you don't believe in that? That is the same quality of "evidence" you are giving me.

that's a big question, don't know if I can answer it without a few pages or more. I actually looked into these on my search.

buddha and mohammad and Joseph didn't claim to be God in the flesh. That means allot to me. I won't subject myself to a man.
Some say buddha was an atheist, some say he just wasn't concerned with a God. So.. I agree with allot he says, I think he was wise. Mohammad and Joseph Smith are in the same boat.. their self made prophets with absolutely no witnesses or evidence in any form leaches on the backs of another religion.. and not very good ones at that. Why not go to the source. They both are very similar to each other and every other religion, Man reaching for God... Christianity is God reaching for man. I'll admit it rings more true to me the more I know myself.

No one "witnessed" Something miraculous happing to Joseph Smith except in their "minds eye". And from all his plagiarism, and faulty history, I'd say it's evident that nothing did happen to him except he got laid allot.

Who was killed for believing in Mormonism? the people of 9/11 1857? Hyrm and Joseph? Seriously.. I don't know.

[_mormonx]

Demonstrate that the existence of the universe requires some sort of creator. Don't just assert - provide EVIDENCE.

the big bang a great ball of Gas.. who let that awesome fart :)

[_Mad Viking]

Truth doesn't change... Are you seriously telling me that Math depends on Matter to exist? You give me a hand full of "experts" and I'll give you a hand full.

Math is an invention of the human mind.

[_Nightlion]

Jesus the historical figure? Sure, I can prove he doesn't presently exist as a living person. When was he born? 2000 years ago or so? The maximum level for human lifespan is well below 200 years, let alone 2000 years.

But that isn't what I was talking about. You're probably used to talking to atheists who think Jesus was a fictional character - that isn't me. I'm talking about the GOD YOU WORSHIP, not just the limited historical Jesus.

It boils down to this, in a nutshell. For Christians, Jesus is the great "I Am." In other words, Yahweh.

Just one problem - Yahweh isn't original to the Hebrews, and was not originally the grand creator God. Yahweh replaced/merged with El in the Hebrew pantheon. El was a god they stole from the Canaanites, while Yahweh was a god stolen from other tribes in the Sinai/ Paran/ Edom/ Teiman area. That's where Yahweh first comes into the picture, as a minor god (sometimes a war god, sometimes a god of storms or metallurgy) worshiped by various tribes, later appropriated and promoted by the Jews.. It's only later that he becomes conflated with El.

El himself is also not original to the Hebrews. He's what you'd call a pagan god. He was a carouser and a drunkard. He had a body and a penis and he used it to impregnate his various wives:

In one of the Ugaritic (the earliest worshippers of El, as far as I know) texts it tells the story of how El impregnated the goddesses Asherah and Rahmay:

Long is El's penis like Sea's.
El's penis is like that of Flood...
El bends his bowstave,
He draws his mighty shaft...
El seduces his wives,
Lo, the two women cry:
O husband! husband! streched is your bowstave,
Drawn is your mighty shaft...
The women are (now) El's wives...
The two travail and give birth...

So yes, I can absolutely prove that your particular god isn't real. I can prove it by showing his evolution, and how humans have changed him over the centuries. He has all the hallmarks of a fictional character.

Awe gee, this is the crap you have to put up with when you have the blind leading the blind. Always got to pull their ox out of the ditch.

BIG CLUE science brats, ah, ahem, you know, like after Noah, everybody was Christian, as it were, they all knew the same things.

But then Nimrod and his Satanists decided to slice and dice and serve the devil and chopped up the truth into the many little bits and pieces strewn about history that you can now pick up and mock religion like you know so much about it.

SO, bottom line is when stories go around that OTHER guys were crucified, did miracles, walked on water, had disciples and raised the dead and came back from the tomb, those are all tellings of the story of redemption from all those hacked up 'likening them to their own apostasy' legends which renamed Christ and God and were all about the same thing. Think ye humans, what more can I say?

Moses actually LEARNED from a Bedouin sheep herder out in the Sinai. The world knew the truth and, just like today, everyone wanted to make it conform to themselves. I bet Sodom and Gomorrah thought themselves righteous, some how. Politically correct after their fashion.