What's the utility of faith?

[_Hoops]

Demonstrate that the existence of the universe requires some sort of creator. Don't just assert - provide EVIDENCE.

The only time I mentioned a Creator was in a biblical reference. I'm not speaking of that now. Does anyone currently support the universe coming into being without a First Cause? Now, you're being purposefully obtuse.

[_Mad Viking]

...the universe works by laws, the universe, in the least, produces intelligence (except on this thread),

Agreed.

...the laws of the universe exist outside of the universe and are not dependent on the universe.

How exactly did you determine what exists outside the universe?

And I might add, my job as christians is not to convince you through empirical evidence, it's to convince you, you are a sinner, that God's wrath is pointed directly and personally at you, that your in deep need of a savior. You know him already, you just hate him.

So convince me already! If its your job, then do it!

[_Mad Viking]

Demonstrate that the existence of the universe requires some sort of creator. Don't just assert - provide EVIDENCE.

The only time I mentioned a Creator was in a biblical reference. I'm not speaking of that now. Does anyone currently support the universe coming into being without a First Cause? Now, you're being purposefully obtuse.

The term "First Cause" carries with it the connotation of the said cause being uncaused. That is illogical.

[_Hoops]

The term "First Cause" carries with it the connotation of the said cause being uncaused. That is illogical.

Quite so.

[_mormonx]

Math is an invention of the human mind.

wow... from the empirical warrior comes the stupidest statement ever uttered by an atheist, Dawkins would be ashamed of you. I'm going to hang that on my wall. Math, an invention of man. So I guess 2 + 2 = 5 would've worked just as well if we had decided to go that way. I guess 1 potato sitting next to another potato would not be 2 potatoes in some distant destruction of man. If this is your logic, it all makes sense, because by this definition, logic is also made by man. How can you trust your own logic if it's just chemicals.. in fact, I think you just had a chemical spike you might want to check into.

Math is a discovery.. Math exists as do Laws and logic outside of Matter. It doesn't need humans, plants earth, space time, because it RULES it all.

I noticed you never got back on your disproving my God with linguistics.

[_Rambo]

that's a big question, don't know if I can answer it without a few pages or more. I actually looked into these on my search.

buddha and mohammad and Joseph didn't claim to be God in the flesh. That means allot to me. I won't subject myself to a man.
Some say buddha was an atheist, some say he just wasn't concerned with a God. So.. I agree with allot he says, I think he was wise. Mohammad and Joseph Smith are in the same boat.. their self made prophets with absolutely no witnesses or evidence in any form leaches on the backs of another religion.. and not very good ones at that. Why not go to the source. They both are very similar to each other and every other religion, Man reaching for God... Christianity is God reaching for man. I'll admit it rings more true to me the more I know myself.

No one "witnessed" Something miraculous happing to Joseph Smith except in their "minds eye". And from all his plagiarism, and faulty history, I'd say it's evident that nothing did happen to him except he got laid allot.

Who was killed for believing in Mormonism? the people of 9/11 1857? Hyrm and Joseph? Seriously.. I don't know.

Well yeah Joseph and Hyrum and many believing pioneers that crossed the plains on their journey. There was also the Hauns Mill thing.
Ok so if I understand you correctly the only difference between Jesus and Joseph or Moe is that Jesus claimed to be god in the flesh. If Joseph or Moe claimed to be god would you believe them?

[_mormonx]

The term "First Cause" carries with it the connotation of the said cause being uncaused. That is illogical.

Quite so.

look to your own scientist.. it's a common understanding that there was a time when there was nothing, and something came from it. I listen to debates all day long, and I've yet to hear a scientist or atheist or anyone dispute the theory of the big bang. They only try to explain it, or usually avoid it.

[_mormonx]

Well yeah Joseph and Hyrum

killed for messing with the news paper trying to hide polygamy.

and many believing pioneers that crossed the plains on their journey.

Died of diarrhea, indians and such I'm sure.

There was also the Hauns Mill thing.

will look into it.
Point being, no one has ever tested a Mormon with death. "You stop believing that Joseph Smith is a prophet or we will kill you" Never happened. Maybe they pissed some people off and got killed for it.. but the martyrs in the Bible and externally died because they would not reject Jesus as Lord.
Very different.

Ok so if I understand you correctly the only difference between Jesus and Joseph or Moe is that Jesus claimed to be god in the flesh. If Joseph or Moe claimed to be god would you believe them?

Like I said it would take pages to list the thousands of reasons Joe and Moe are megalomanic morons, and have nothing backing themselves up but their word.

[_mormonx]

Hauns Mill thing.

Live by the sword die by the sword.

[_Mad Viking]

wow... from the empirical warrior comes the stupidest statement ever uttered by an atheist, Dawkins would be ashamed of you. I'm going to hang that on my wall.

I don't care what Dawkins thinks.

So I guess 2 + 2 = 5 would've worked just as well if we had decided to go that way.

Don't be a simpleton. The digit 2 was developed by man to assign value to observed quantities. As was the digit 5. The universe doesn't know what 2 or 5 means. Humans have developed mathematical models to characterize our observations of this world. The universe does not quantify anything. Math is a set of rules we use to quantify or model natural observances.

I guess 1 potato sitting next to another potato would not be 2 potatoes in some distant destruction of man.

The concept of quantities is irrelevant absent an intelligent mind.

If this is your logic, it all makes sense, because by this definition, logic is also made by man. How can you trust your own logic if it's just chemicals...

The same way you do.

Math is a discovery.. Math exists as do Laws and logic outside of Matter. It doesn't need humans, plants earth, space time, because it RULES it all.

Repeating it doesn't make it so.

I noticed you never got back on your disproving my God with linguistics.

I missed it in the flurry of posts. However, it is not my job to disprove your god. It is your job to prove him. The burden of proof is entirely yours.