Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb

[_beastie]

It's clear to me that DCP is quibbling over the word "misogynist". I guess one could make the argument that calling women whore and choosing to insult them by referencing their sexual appeal in conversations that had nothing to do with sexual appeal does not necessarily denote hatred of women. Maybe it just shows lack of respect for women.

Mormon apologetics is largely built on quibbling over specific words, kind of like Clinton did with "is" and "sex." Whether or not Schryver actually hates women or just has no respect for them and evaluates their worth on the basis of sexual appeal, the larger meaning of the accusation is clear. But why would DCP not avail himself of the opportunity to wiggle out on the basis of narrowly defining a word?

[_Chap]

It's clear to me that DCP is quibbling over the word "misogynist". I guess one could make the argument that calling women whore and choosing to insult them by referencing their sexual appeal in conversations that had nothing to do with sexual appeal does not necessarily denote hatred of women. Maybe it just shows lack of respect for women.

Mormon apologetics is largely built on quibbling over specific words, kind of like Clinton did with "is" and "sex." Whether or not Schryver actually hates women or just has no respect for them and evaluates their worth on the basis of sexual appeal, the larger meaning of the accusation is clear. But why would DCP not avail himself of the opportunity to wiggle out on the basis of narrowly defining a word?

Yup, both as to the specific point on quibbling about the application of the term 'misogyny', and the general point about LDS apologetics (and in my view a lot of other religious apologetics besides) as the acme of the art of quibble.

Basically, I don't care what kind of label is hung on Schryver's posting behavior, which did indeed include "choosing to insult [women] by referencing their sexual appeal in conversations that had nothing to do with sexual appeal ", as well as other gender-specific unpleasantness.

Whatever descriptor you use, it was not behavior that anybody I know would consider permissible for a decent adult man. Maybe DCP's acquaintances are a little more rough-hewn?

[_Buffalo]

It's clear to me that DCP is quibbling over the word "misogynist". I guess one could make the argument that calling women whore and choosing to insult them by referencing their sexual appeal in conversations that had nothing to do with sexual appeal does not necessarily denote hatred of women. Maybe it just shows lack of respect for women.

Mormon apologetics is largely built on quibbling over specific words, kind of like Clinton did with "is" and "sex." Whether or not Schryver actually hates women or just has no respect for them and evaluates their worth on the basis of sexual appeal, the larger meaning of the accusation is clear. But why would DCP not avail himself of the opportunity to wiggle out on the basis of narrowly defining a word?

I suspect DCP shares Schryver's misogyny, but has the common sense to keep it to himself.

[_consiglieri]

I suspect DCP shares Schryver's misogyny, but has the common sense to keep it to himself.

I have to respectfully disagree, Buff.

Although I am no more able to read the intents of Dr. Peterson's heart than anybody else, I think he probably finds many of Will's posts here offensive.

But DCP is sort of between the devil and the deep blue sea, in that he may find it imprudent to post his true thoughts about the conduct of a friend on a public message board.

If I put myself in his shoes, and if I were a personal friend of Will, I might have a similar reticence.

And I have to say, in all fairness, that I have heard directly from others who find Will's posts offensive, and even misogynistic; and who have also met Will in real life; and they tend to agree that Will up-close and personal is a very different, and more positive, experience from reading his words on a message board.

But as for myself, being no friend of Will, I have no problem posting I find him boorish and substantially less than a gentleman.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[_ELYSAB]

I was able to unveil the correct meaning of the Nephitic characters from Book of Mormon reproduced in a list of so many types of them, by Joseph Smith who did the copy, and put them under the title of "CARACTORS" (a not English name, but alike NEPHITIC, Latin, extinct Sabellicus) and sent to USA scientist ANTHON. Thus the usual name Anthon's caractors given to such list of characters I was able to translate and published some 10 years ago, even in LDS sites. It was possible to see that such characters were exactly the same, identical, of Sabellicus language in use in some part of Italy, as found in Tombs discovered and unearthed exactly in the year it was published the first edition of Book of Mormon. I published on this, with pictures and comparisons, in the LDS site MormonDialogue.org (1921...). I was working in Italy when I discovered about and that words of such Sabellicus are those of Book of Mormon partly or not translated, as Moroni (Morone, Morroni, Morrone), which was a popular name.

I retired and I decided to continue the works and research on the translation of the CARACTORS. Such was a Joseph Smith's gathering of equal characters but with distinct styles (including "fonts"). Thus I decided to solve the ENIGMA of what would be the contents of The Kinderhook Plates. Not taking into consideration if they were (yet are) correct ones, or if they nowadays are just hoax. I was interested in examining if the CHARACTERS were "reasonable, trustable", even if they had been made copy from the original and correct true brass plates and "photocopied" on false brass material, modern plates, hoax. But having trustable original information.

Thus I did quite alike I did and first reported some 10 years ago. I did a research to see if the plates had a trustable set of characters that I could translated to MODERN and consistent CHARACTERS. Like I had done with CARACTORS, set of not so old Nephitic characters: 600 BC was the match with Sabellicus, as from tombs in Italy. Knowing that it was found the town NeFich (written exactly that way; phonetically translation becomes NePHich) in Egypt, in the way to Jerusalem. A town found in old map of Egypt and yet alive. Thus NeF-ites lived in Egypt. Nefich means ch=property of Nefi's people. Nowadays has an Arab name: N-A-fich. Little changes

It is amazing that KINDERHOOK plates were not yet translated in some rational way, so simple and easy and fast is the translation. There was just a "little problem" for the translator. The use of some DUMB (silent) straight lines (sometimes a little curved). But that was for a clear SAFETY REASON, as of SLAVES trying to avoid their MASTERS knowing what things they were writing and their messages they were exchanging among other groups. They used the SAME PROCEDURE of safety we use nowadays as to avoid "computers" reading what we want to avoid them "tampering" our private HUMAN DOCUMENTS, as to SPY our human private information, as codes, key numbers, etc. Even to become member of this FORUM I had to identify the correct letters of this set of letters rotated to the left and to the right and the PROTO-NEPHITES did the same, and even putting characters upside-down and making them in FLIPPED position. SECURITY REASON. But if you translated CARACTORS set of characters, it is quite easy to UNVEIL such "tricks". Also considering Sabellicus' also.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/83a14150113f7dd22fcc5ee0aeed0992ac39fabe8c97e39eb33b29292b3c14f44g.jpg


You can see ROTATION of characters to right and left (clockwise and anti-clockwise) and you can see the DUMB lines, some touching the characters. The same SECURITY procedure is used in KINDERHOOK plates, because they were at the end of LEBANON (PHOENICIA) phase to entering into GRECIA (Joel 3:6). The characters are basically of Phoenician origin, but already with the "basic features" of the Nephitic Language that was used through Italy, up it was ERASED by the Romans in some 5 centuries B.C. because of Political Reasons (erase their memories of PAST as SLAVES in Greece and Phoenicia). Thus all in Sabellicus was "erased, exterminated" from memory and physically. Only information well saved in well earthed (covered) tombs survived. There is none relationship between Sabellicus and Latin. Latin is Greek classic.

Translation of PROTO-NEPHITIC (very early version of Nephitic, probably it was organized in Phoenicia, Joel 3:6) then is very easy and very fast. All 12 plates can be translated in just one working day...

See just one plate before translation:

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/3c209f27c55afb0c09031c6598229a7e43ccf7eb5623f7989a8e50c84c14de8d6g.jpg Click on URL to see very enlarged PLATE. The numbers were provided, as I did with CHARACTORS, to locate the position of each CHARACTER, as to provide DIDACTIC explanation about the TRANSLATION that was provided: rotation and FLIP+ DUMB



And next you can see the result of TRANSLATION. It is not PERFECT, but it is already a FIRST GUESS for students go on.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/42633e5ba681c21a6bb3d3dac7610282fb611377c610942a830c698fb22cb9a46g.jpg Click and see the translation very much enlarged.



The addition of DUMB lines ("silent") and ROTATION and FLIP of characters made them so SECRET and that was the intention in the past days of slavery..., that nobody was able to DECIPHER them... It is the same with text that is written with the CODES USED to SCREEN candidates to become members of this group. With so strange characters for sure you would say, in future, that our characters are impossible to be read... They are written in some strange language.

It was a very secret language, used by LDS of early 2010, in their secret combinations and sites.

Best personal regards,

[_ELYSAB]

Also the plate nr. 2, before translation (just after receiving the numbers):
http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/d82b6d99901f08d14bb3fb3e336d30c1db5ecc160ed9e8dd4c78fe812e92c3666g.jpg Click on URL and see very enlarged image.



Next it is shown the TRANSLATED characters of proto-primitive Nephitic characters. They are mainly (almost) Phoenician alike nature and aspect, but not as "organized" as phoenician, but quite like "disorder" with a goal to provide teaching and examples for the user of the manual. Thus this was mainly a didactic material. As to show the same character affected by the "dumb line" and next to it without such line or rotated or subject to flip or by both conditions and sizes.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/8f877ff07e311f3173b859a0dc05cb4be8b0ef4380299155697bd670d04489b26g.jpg Click over the URL to see very enlarged image.



With best personal regards, ELY-SAB, in Nephitic SAB-ELY.

[_moksha]

And I have to say, in all fairness, that I have heard directly from others who find Will's posts offensive, and even misogynistic; and who have also met Will in real life; and they tend to agree that Will up-close and personal is a very different, and more positive, experience from reading his words on a message board.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

So up-close and in person Will and Nomad are entirely more personable than portrayed on this board. I suppose that is a a very powerful tool in the hands of a skilled Caractor.

[Guest]

How to use the translation procedure, being disclosed, for CHARACTERS originated from very ANCIENT NEPHITIC similar from KINDERHOOK plates and similar so ANCIENT sources?

Next we are to provide a PRACTICAL CASE, with one WORD that has an age of approximately some 500 B.C. (maybe a little more or less). I am not as rich as BYU to provide precise and scientific date of burial.

You can see that the WORD is in NEPHITIC alike of very OLD AGE, much more AGED than what provided in the TOMB and MOUND from where it came the KINDERHOOK plates. In fact such set of TOMBS were discovered in the year the Book of Mormon received its first edition and the tombs are sited very far away. Nobody would create hoax with the contents and words and texts that were discovered... In fact much Old Testament that was stolen, as took place with USA "Indian Mounds".

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/4bd4878ded7ee3a5ca78fbce626e0e1bffab3992e0ececb9930cb02acc7eefa86g.jpg

You can see the PROCEDURES for making the TRANSLATION of the CHARACTERS from very OLD and ANGED and ANCIENT Nephitic alike TOMB, carved CHARACTERS on STONE of a TOMB of some 500 B.C., to convert them into STANDAR NEPHITIC CHARACTERS (in the upper part of the document) as copied by Joseph Smith from the Gold Plates of The Book of Mormon.

Such information he reproduced on the document ANTHON's "CARACTORS" that is easily available in Internet.

As you can see the CARACTORS are perfectly matching with the material originated from the Tombs unearthed from similar data (of some 600 B.C.). The match is more than the PERFECTION (the meaning of the words is the same also) and thus we have another way for a direction translation of so ANCIENT CHARACTERS, as KINDERHOOK's, directly into MODERN nowadays CHARACTERS.

Being translated CHARACTERS into MODERN CHARACTERS, it becomes quite simple to make the translation of WORDS and PHRASES, as they are composed of CHARACTERS and then we are dealing with CHARACTERS that we understand. Also we can deal with SOUNDS, with the PHONETICS as they are linked to the CHARACTERS (also).

That was the reasoning with CHAMPOLION, in 1822, when he provided SCIENTIFIC and MODERN translation for HIEROGLYPHS from OLD EGYPT into modern Characters (letters) that people coult gather into words and phrases and get reliable translations. That ended the COMIC phase

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/2f6077106cdc69cb5ea10625277ce3d4727861bae3e270e45de6db84484cbfaa6g.jpg

I hope it be helpful in removing so great mysteries and unveils on momonism related to so basic things. As they were in related to Ancient Egypt and things: were based on the figures carved or painted on monuments and papirus, that were like mute "comic books". Without legends. Quite like Donald Duck and Uncle Scroodge, McDuck T_A_L_E_S...

Their Egyptian Ancient history, before the great archeology pre-Champolion era, was as "funny - Comic" as some we hear from some academic centers reading "COMICS literatures for kids". As that Meso-America is the Nephitic Empire... When Joseph Smith was very clear. Nephitic Empire was from New York State (including Cumorah Hill, on shore=nearby of EAST SEA = Lake Ontario, the only one CUMORAH he knew) up to the Rocky Mountains (the only one he knew). Kingdom included many things as Kinderhook Mounds...

But if our friends don't like these only SPECULATIONS about what could be the TRANSLATION of the contents of the CHARACTERS on KINDERHOOK Plates, please, let us consider them as not existing. Because they are a HOAX and/or because it was decided we are to consider them as not convenient for our societ. Thus we ignore them.

[_Kishkumen]

Although I am no more able to read the intents of Dr. Peterson's heart than anybody else, I think he probably finds many of Will's posts here offensive.

I would put real money on the correctness of that statement. No doubt that Dr. Peterson abhors and deeply regrets Will Schryver's boorishness. Unfortunately, his unswerving loyalty to fellow apologists and already stuffed email prevent him voicing publicly his true opinions about it.

[_Chap]

No doubt that Dr. Peterson abhors and deeply regrets Will Schryver's boorishness.

Yup. Based on the style and content of his writing as I have seen it for a number of years, I'd bet on that too.

Unfortunately, his unswerving loyalty to fellow apologists and already stuffed email prevent him voicing publicly his true opinions about it.

That seems very likely. If so, it would seem that DCP thinks he is doing right by refraining for giving unbelievers support in their attacks on a fellow-believer, even if the fellow-believer in question does things he would never dream of doing.

Well, I suppose that on balance I'd prefer to believe that DCP feels that way than to have to conclude that he thinks an adult man ought to address women posters in the way that Schryver has done.