How did Moroni transport the plates from Mesoamerica to NY?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I'm curious as to how Mr. Moroni could pack extremely heavy & cumbersome gold plates across the continent(s).

What kind of pack animal did he have?

Did he perhaps use a cart? If so, how did he negotiate the extremely dense and marshy forests along the way? How would he repair a broken wheel or axle?

Where did he create the stone box, and again, where is that damn thing?

Look. I'm just asking questions.

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_Simon Belmont]

I'm curious as to how Mr. Moroni could pack extremely heavy & cumbersome gold plates across the continent(s).

Who said they were heavy? They were gold leaflets, not solid bullion! This is elementary stuff, and frankly this compounded with the fact that you thought your father was "a seventy" and that Joseph Smith is "a god" makes me wonder if you were ever LDS.

What kind of pack animal did he have?

An ass, like you.

Look. I'm just asking questions.

You're asking about things way over your head. Go back to grammar school.

[_Chap]

I'm curious as to how Mr. Moroni could pack extremely heavy & cumbersome gold plates across the continent(s).

Who said they were heavy? They were gold leaflets, not solid bullion!

Here is a quotation from an article in a source favorable to the CoJCoLDS, which is concerned to argue that the plates are much lighter than some critics argue:

Too little gold in the Book of Mormon plates would have made them brittle, and too much gold would have made them too heavy as well as increasing the danger of distortion during engraving. Thus, according to Putnam’s calculations, the Book of Mormon plates (which were probably tumbaga) were between 8 and 12 carat gold and thus would have weighed between 53 and 86 pounds. To the eye, however, the tumbaga plates would have had the appearance of pure gold. (Ibid., 830, 831.)

This weight is of the order of magnitude of a loaded army back-pack. Of course Moroni could not have made a long journey from Mesoamerica to New York without a lot of other gear - food, tools, extra clothing, weapons and basic camping equipment.

It is therefore quite reasonable to ask how Moroni could move all that stuff.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

I would like Mr. Simon or Mr. BCSpace to answer this query:

Hello,

I would like Mr. BCSpace & Mr. Simon to explain the LDS church's official doctrine that the gold plates were/are gold.

V/R
Dr. Cameron

V/R
Dr. CamNC4Me

[_Jonah]

Hello,

I would like Mr. Simon or Mr. BCSpace to answer this query:

Hello,

I would like Mr. BCSpace & Mr. Simon to explain the LDS church's official doctrine that the gold plates were/are gold.

V/R
Dr. Cameron

V/R
Dr. CamNC4Me

Seems like they are hoping this thread will die before having to answer your query. Kinda dodging and running from the question like Joseph did with his attackers while running with the 50 lbs. - 200 lbs. plates.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08wRRff8x0k

Joseph was definitely ahead of his time. He could have been a Hall of Fame running back in the NFL. Imagine all the groupie babes (near his own age no less) he could have had without having to marry them. Plus, he probably would have come up with a convenient revelation making it O.K. to do fun stuff on Sundays.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Bumping for Mr. Simon & Mr. BCSpace.

V/R
Dr. Cameron

[_Chap]

Just to remind ourselves, it isn't just a case of Moroni having to hump the plates all the way from Mesoamerica, plus the rest of his travelling gear. Joseph Smith is even said to have run several miles with them, fighting off assailants as he ran. At least, so his mother said:

After removing the plates from the stone box, Joseph hid them in a birch log until preparations could be made at home for the plates. then he went to retrieve them.

"The plates were secreted about three miles from home...Joseph, on coming to them, took them from their secret place, and wrapping them in his linen frock, placed them under his arm and started for home."

After proceeding a short distance, he thought it would be more safe to leave the road and go through the woods. Traveling some distance after he left the road, he came to a large windfall, and as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. In striking the last one he dislocated his thumb, which, however, he did not notice until he came within sight of the house, when he threw himself down in the corner of the fence in order to recover his breath. As soon as he was able, he arose and came to the house." (Lucy Mack Smith, mother of Joseph Smith, in Biographical Sketches of Joseph Smith the Prophet, 1853, pp. 104-105; Comp. reprinted edition by Bookcraft Publishers in 1956 under the title History of Joseph Smith by His Mother, pp. 107- 108)

I take that from this page, which also cites the following interesting passage, surely relevant to Joseph Smith's ability to do all that running:

Joseph's Running Ability

From the 2007 Sunday School Manual (underlining added):

Evidence of the Prophet's extraordinary character emerged early in his life. The Smiths were living in West Lebanon, New Hampshire, when a deadly epidemic of typhoid fever attacked many in the community, including all the Smith children. While the other children recovered without complication, Joseph, who was about seven years old, developed a serious infection in his left leg. Dr. Nathan Smith of Dartmouth Medical School at nearby Hanover, New Hampshire, agreed to perform a new surgical procedure to try to save the boy's leg. As Dr. Smith and his colleagues prepared to operate, Joseph asked his mother to leave the room so she would not have to witness his suffering. Refusing liquor to dull the pain and relying only on his father's reassuring embrace, Joseph bravely endured as the surgeon bored into and chipped away part of his leg bone. The surgery was successful, although Joseph walked the next several years with crutches and showed signs of a slight limp the rest of his life.

"The Life and Ministry of Joseph Smith," Teachings of Presidents of the Church:

Joseph Smith, (2007), p xxii

And here isa Youtube video showing several fairly fit looking students, none with obvious limps, trying and failing to escape pursuers while carrying a 50lb weight. Of course if the plates really were gold (as stated in official church publications) instead of tumbaga, the problem is much, much worse.

I don't think Belmont or bcspace will be saying much that is useful at this point. Yes! It's time for whyme to step up to the plate ...

[_stemelbow]

I just have a couple of comments to consider.

First, it would not be necessary for Moroni, if he travelled from MesoAmerica to NY, to travel straight there. He could have travelled for a while, then settled for months or years, only to start travelling again.

Second, I don't think its necessary to assume, as well, that Joseph Smith' trek back after getting the plates to have been one big constant run. he could have ran a little and slowed down and walked a little. And to run at top speed with a weight doesn't mean top speed without a weight.

[_Chap]

I just have a couple of comments to consider.

First, it would not be necessary for Moroni, if he travelled from MesoAmerica to NY, to travel straight there. He could have travelled for a while, then settled for months or years, only to start travelling again.

The question remains - when he was travelling, he was toting a very heavy load, even on the assumption that the plates were not made of gold, as official church publications say they were. I don't see how stopping for a week or a month or a year every now and then makes that issue go away.

Second, I don't think its necessary to assume, as well, that Joseph Smith' trek back after getting the plates to have been one big constant run. he could have ran a little and slowed down and walked a little. And to run at top speed with a weight doesn't mean top speed without a weight.

Well firstly, the account from Lucy Mack Smith says there were three guys after him, one at least with a gun, anxious to get their hands on the gold plates, and it is clear that he was running at least from after the first attack to the third attack:

...as he was jumping over a log, a man sprang up from behind it, and gave him a heavy blow with a gun. Joseph turned around and knocked him down, then ran at the top of his speed. About half a mile further he was attacked again in the same manner as before; he knocked this man down in like manner as the former, and ran on again; and before he reached home he was assaulted the third time. ...

The point here is that it hard to see how he can have evaded a renewed pursuit by any of these attackers (they thought he had a lump of gold for goodness' sake, so surely one at least would have tried to follow him) if he was running along with at least a 50 lb weight.

Frankly, I think most people will conclude on reading this stuff that either the whole story of the chase is nonsense, or that Joseph Smith can't have been carrying anything resembling a pile of real metal plates with the Book of Mormon written on them.

[_stemelbow]

The question remains - when he was travelling, he was toting a very heavy load, even on the assumption that the plates were not made of gold, as official church publications say they were. I don't see how stopping for a week or a month or a year every now and then makes that issue go away.

I'm just saying its probable that he did not travel straight through. How he transported the plates other than putting them in a pack and carrying on it back is beyond me. I've carried heavy packs for 50 miles or thereabout in a week time a few times and it gets me tired and sore. With that, I suppose its possible.

Well firstly, the account from Lucy Mack Smith says there were three guys after him, one at least with a gun, anxious to get their hands on the gold plates, and it is clear that he was running at least from after the first attack to the third attack:

I realize they were chasing him. But I've been chased too. When I'm not caught its not so much that I ran the whole time, as much as I've cleverly hid, while moving along too. Plus, the condition of the participants matters. I honestly don't think I'd have a tough time running from my father-in-law while carrying a 50 pound weight.

The point here is that it hard to see how he can have evaded a renewed pursuit by any of these attackers (they thought he had a lump of gold for goodness' sake, so surely one at least would have tried to follow him) if he was running along with at least a 50 lb weight.

Fair enough. But just because its hard to see does not mean it did not happen. Perhaps the account was embellished a bit too.

Frankly, I think most people will conclude on reading this stuff that either the whole story of the chase is nonsense, or that Joseph Smith can't have been carrying anything resembling a pile of real metal plates with the Book of Mormon written on them.

You’re probably right on that. Most people hearing the whole story of Mormonism will think it all a hoax, I’m sure.