Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

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_Simon Belmont

Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Darth J wrote:There is a recent thread about how the pre-Columbian Native American Hebrew prophet, Moroni, would have been able to get the golden plates from Mexico or Guatemala or El Dorado or wherever to what would eventually become upstate New York---just in case Joseph Smith would happen to live there 14 centuries later.


Not "just in case" -- the Lord told Moroni where to bury the plates.

In the course of the cited thread, Simon Belmont, who is well known for his trenchant insights and reasonable explanations of various matters,


Correct.

demands to see "official doctrine"


The words you use make your statements loaded. I demanded nothing.

from the LDS Church that the golden plates under discussion were in fact made of gold.


I asked for a reference, yes.

His implicit premise


Called an enthymeme.

is that the plates would have been made of something other than gold, which is 100% apologetic theory and nothing else.


They could have. They may have been pure gold, some type of gold alloy, some type of brass, or any other alloy. We don't and may never know (and frankly, it doesn't matter). Joseph Smith said they had the "appearance of gold." Well, C3P0 had the appearance of Gold, too, but was he made of pure gold?

Here's a pop quiz for you:

You know those chocolate candies that look like gold coins?

Are they:
a) Pure gold
b) Some other metal coloured like gold.




˙ploƃ ǝʞıl pǝɹnoloɔ lɐʇǝɯ ɹǝɥʇo ǝɯos (q :ɹǝʍsuɐ ʇɔǝɹɹoɔ
_DarkHelmet
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Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _DarkHelmet »

the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care.


So hospitals and doctors have the church's permission to treat gay people?
"We have taken up arms in defense of our liberty, our property, our wives, and our children; we are determined to preserve them, or die."
- Captain Moroni - 'Address to the Inhabitants of Canada' 1775
_Darth J
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Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Darth J »

Stemelbow:

1. It is irrelevant to the OP whether or not you enjoy the idea that the Book of Mormon happened in Central America somewhere, and for undisclosed reasons Moroni took plates of some material appearing to be gold from Central America to the future home of Joseph Smith.

The supposition that this journey from Central America to New York is not taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is an ad hoc invention by some apologists attempting to explain a claim that is taught by the LDS Church (that the golden plates were buried by Joseph Smith's house in New York) fitting into the apologist theory---which is not taught by the LDS Church---that the Book of Mormon narrative took place in Central America.

2. It is irrelevant to the OP whether you personally "reject the premise." A great many internet Mormons and apologists summarily reject any criticism of the Church that they claim not to be official doctrine. However, these same people freely use speculation and "theories" in attempt to explain things that are officially taught by the Church.

The OP is asking why, for people who do take the position that criticism based on "not official doctrine" is a priori unnecessary to address, intellectual honesty does not also require such people to limit their responses to criticism of official doctrine to answers from official LDS doctrine. If something a Mormon leader said does not to be addressed because it is not official doctrine, then by the same token an explanation based on speculation and assumptions without proof by a person who has no authority of any kind to speak for the Church should also be summarily rejected on the same basis.

3. The LDS Church makes numerous claims of fact that are either contrary to scientific evidence, or which have no empirical evidence to support them. A claim to have had a subjective, personal spiritual experience is not on the same footing as a claim that a vast, thousand-year civilization of Christian Hebrews lived somewhere in the Western Hemisphere prior to Columbus. The latter claim can be tested empirically. A claim of fact is a claim of fact, regardless of who makes it. Simply because the LDS Church makes numerous claims of fact related to its religious precepts does not change the reality that things like the existence of a Nephite civilization in the objective, physical world are claims of fact, not claims of a spiritual nature.

4. Burden of proof requires a person making a claim to provide a reason to believe that claim. Making a naked assertion, with no evidence of any kind to support it, and then insisting that the unsupported claim is true (or at least highly plausible) until proven otherwise is not how coherent, logical thinking works among people with more intelligence than a brain-damaged parakeet.

The failure of meeting one's burden of proof is a wholly sufficient reason to reject a claim. I am not required to "disprove" the idea, invented out of thin air, that Moroni somehow or other carried plates of gold or gold-appearing material from somewhere in Central America to New York. The lack of any evidence whatsoever for this contrived fantasy is the logical, reasonable basis for rejecting the assertion.

Wondering if you like to be tied up,
--Darth J
_Simon Belmont

Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Darth J wrote:Seriously, isn't there anyone here who would like to explain the OP to Stemelbow?


How do false dichotomies, loaded statements, and strawman arguments work, Darth J? You're an expert on these.
_bcspace
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Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _bcspace »

You know those chocolate candies that look like gold coins?

Are they:
a) Pure gold
b) Some other metal coloured like gold.


The 24 plates are described as "pure gold". But the abridgement itself, the Book of Mormon, is just "gold". The Church seems to go out of it's way to describe them as "metal".
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Simon Belmont

Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Simon Belmont »

bcspace wrote:
You know those chocolate candies that look like gold coins?

Are they:
a) Pure gold
b) Some other metal coloured like gold.


The 24 plates are described as "pure gold". But the abridgement itself, the Book of Mormon, is just "gold". The Church seems to go out of it's way to describe them as "metal".


Don't help DJ, bcspace! I'm trying to see if he can figure out those little coin-candies.
_bcspace
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Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _bcspace »

The LDS Church makes numerous claims of fact that are either contrary to scientific evidence,


The Church has made no such claims.

or which have no empirical evidence to support them.


The Church does make these types of claims. Goes with the territory.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Darth J
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Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Darth J »

bcspace wrote:
The OP is not asking whether one is "free to speculate and hypothesize."


It's begging the question.


Exactly. Speculation and ad hoc hypothesizing, in the absence of any supporting evidence, is simply begging the question.

The OP is asking whether "not official doctrine" should be the conversation-ender for such "speculation and hypotheses" attempting to be used to explain "official doctrine."


Only if official doctrine answers the question.


And if it doesn't, than the Church's claims fail, because the Church has not officially answered the question.

Example: the LDS Church officially teaches that the entire planet Earth became an ocean during Noah's flood. Overwhelming scientific evidence shows that this is not possible. There is no need to turn to the mental masturbation of Mormon apologists, because the Church has already staked its claim.

For example, your ideas about LDS teachings being compatible with evolutionary theory require numerous ad hoc inventions and suppositions that are not found in official LDS teachings.


They merely tie doctrine and science together without conflict and make the same type of doctrinal assumptions that have been made elsewhere.


And as you have no authority to speak on behalf of the LDS Church, your ideas are mere speculation and may be summarily rejected on that basis.

Therefore, official LDS teachings must stand on their own, without such "speculation and hypotheses," to answer the question of whether official LDS teachings are compatible with evolutionary theory.

Right?


They always stand on their own. They just don't answer every question.


Irrelevant. The OP is contemplating questions on which the LDS Church has taken a position.

Totally agree. For example, some people try to say that the United Order was de facto socialism or communism. In reality, socialism and communism are definable, coherent economic and ideological concepts, regardless of whether one agrees or not with said ideologies. The United Order, on the other hand, is meaningless patter and drivel that failed because it really isn't anything except the vacuous babbling of Joseph Smith.


The U.O. is not an economic system but free market capitalism is certainly required for it to work by doctrinal implication. It's not difficult to see how it would work in the modern world without much change.


And believing Mormons of a more leftist bent see the opposite in the United Order, suggesting that ultimately the United Order is nothing but vacuous babbling that is so devoid of meaning that one can claim it to support whatever one's political bent happens to be.

Therefore, you are completely right to say that LDS Democrats should not claim that official church teachings support socialism or the welfare state.


Yep


Nor should they claim that official church teachings support free-market capitalism, since the LDS Church has offered nothing to enhance, clarify, or otherwise add to the world's already-existant understanding of free market capitalism.

Similarly, the LDS Church does not officially accept or encourage homosexuality, except when it is expedient for it to do so:


Has doctrine defined homosexuality as inborn?


No. Therefore, LDS Democrats are free to speculate and hypothesize that gay people are born that way.

http://newsroom.LDS.org/article/church- ... iage-votes

The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians. Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.


I don't see any acceptance or encouragement of homosexuality here.


By not opposing legally enforceable rights for same-sex couples?

What is the effective difference between not opposing something and accepting it?
_Darth J
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Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Darth J »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Darth J wrote:Seriously, isn't there anyone here who would like to explain the OP to Stemelbow?


How do false dichotomies, loaded statements, and strawman arguments work, Darth J? You're an expert on these.


Nobody is stopping you from indicating where I have used any of the above. On the other hand, since you cannot be certain that either you or I exist, why are you so concerned about it?
_Simon Belmont

Re: Only Official Doctrine Can Defend Official Doctrine

Post by _Simon Belmont »

Oh, and here's another thing DJ:

How do those little candy coins with the appearance of gold get to my A&P store at precisely the time I am there shopping for them? I mean, it's as if the manufacturer shipped the candy to my local A&P just in case I was going to be there shopping for them!
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