From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

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_stemelbow
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _stemelbow »

Doctor Scratch wrote:Now, maybe I'm reaching here, but if *I* were Elder Oaks, and *I* were in a "multiple-marriage situation," and if I happened to hear of a "so-called intellectual" saying that "[God] is not indifferent" and that "monogamy is the rule," I might take some issue with this sort of rhetoric.



Yeah, but come on. Try and be at least a little reasonable. You tend to take issue with the most innocuous of comments, often attempting to twist nearly anything from people who don't like into something deranged or deprived. YOu can't expect much more than your few followers here to take your idea of how you would behave as equivalent with how Elder Oaks would behave.

I wonder...if you are so intent on attacking other people who happen to be LDS, why are you settled in as anonymous? Do youfear, at all, that many to most of your complaints about others are really just hypocrisy? Do you fear someone might scrutinize you and your life as you do with Dr. Peterson's? Your MO is quite a curious thing if you think about it.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_gramps
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _gramps »

Apostle Oaks wrote:

DHO [Dallin Oaks]: If I talked about that I'd be making doctrinal statements where the prophet has not chosen to make doctrinal statements, so I think I shouldn't say anything except to affirm that a lot of people, myself included, are in multiple-marriage situations. Look at the significance of that. There are a lot of people that live on this earth that have been married to more than one person. Sometimes those marriages have ended with death; sometimes they've ended with divorce. What does the next life mean to them in relation to a covenant they once made and so on? I don't think those people have much of an answer for that question. It might not bother them because they don't believe that people will live as married couples in the next life. And if they don't make and live for the covenants to do that, [as for themselves] they're right! But for people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, What will life be in the next life, when you're married to more than one wife for eternity? I have to say I don't know. But I know that I've made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that's anticipated here will be realized in the next life. How? Why, I don't know.
(emphasis mine)

I personally believe he is flat out lying. Let me explain why.

My father, now in a rest home with Alzheimers, is presently married to his third wife. All three of his marriages were temple, for time and all eternity, marriages.

After my mother died from cancer, while serving together with my father on their fifth mission together, my father married the sister of an Apostle, present on the Quorum today. In fact, this Apostle performed the sealing. It was also an Apostle who performed the sealing for his third marriage, after his second wife died in a car accident while serving with my father, on yet another mission.

That is three marriages. All temple marriages. Each one for time and all eternity.

The Apostle who performed the second sealing, told my father during the ceremony, that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom. In fact, he told my father that my mother, my father's first wife, was present in the room during the sealing and approved of the second sealing.

My father also by letter, told me that he knew my mother was there, and that she approved.

No different with the third. My father was told by the Apostle, during the third sealing, that this time both of my father's former wives were present, and approved, and that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom.

My father also sent me a letter confirming this, that indeed they were present, and that I should feel o.k. about all this because my mother and his second wife all approved.

Either Apostle Oaks is lying, or he doesn't seem to be as privileged as other Apostles not as senior as he is in the Quorum.

Like I said from the outset, Apostle Oaks is a liar.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_harmony
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _harmony »

gramps wrote:Either Apostle Oaks is lying, or he doesn't seem to be as privileged as other Apostles not as senior as he is in the Quorum.

Like I said from the outset, Apostle Oaks is a liar.


Sounds to me like Oaks is more honest. At least he says he doesn't know, while there is no way the other guy knows.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Blixa
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _Blixa »

gramps wrote:Apostle Oaks wrote:

DHO [Dallin Oaks]: If I talked about that I'd be making doctrinal statements where the prophet has not chosen to make doctrinal statements, so I think I shouldn't say anything except to affirm that a lot of people, myself included, are in multiple-marriage situations. Look at the significance of that. There are a lot of people that live on this earth that have been married to more than one person. Sometimes those marriages have ended with death; sometimes they've ended with divorce. What does the next life mean to them in relation to a covenant they once made and so on? I don't think those people have much of an answer for that question. It might not bother them because they don't believe that people will live as married couples in the next life. And if they don't make and live for the covenants to do that, [as for themselves] they're right! But for people who live in the belief, as I do, that marriage relations can be for eternity, then you must say, What will life be in the next life, when you're married to more than one wife for eternity? I have to say I don't know. But I know that I've made those covenants, and I believe if I am true to the covenants that the blessing that's anticipated here will be realized in the next life. How? Why, I don't know.
(emphasis mine)

I personally believe he is flat out lying. Let me explain why.

My father, now in a rest home with Alzheimers, is presently married to his third wife. All three of his marriages were temple, for time and all eternity, marriages.

After my mother died from cancer, while serving together with my father on their fifth mission together, my father married the sister of an Apostle, present on the Quorum today. In fact, this Apostle performed the sealing. It was also an Apostle who performed the sealing for his third marriage, after his second wife died in a car accident while serving with my father, on yet another mission.

That is three marriages. All temple marriages. Each one for time and all eternity.

The Apostle who performed the second sealing, told my father during the ceremony, that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom. In fact, he told my father that my mother, my father's first wife, was present in the room during the sealing and approved of the second sealing.

My father also by letter, told me that he knew my mother was there, and that she approved.

No different with the third. My father was told by the Apostle, during the third sealing, that this time both of my father's former wives were present, and approved, and that they would all be together in the Celestial Kingdom.

My father also sent me a letter confirming this, that indeed they were present, and that I should feel o.k. about all this because my mother and his second wife all approved.

Either Apostle Oaks is lying, or he doesn't seem to be as privileged as other Apostles not as senior as he is in the Quorum.

Like I said from the outset, Apostle Oaks is a liar.


Dear lord.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
_gramps
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _gramps »

harmony wrote:
gramps wrote:Either Apostle Oaks is lying, or he doesn't seem to be as privileged as other Apostles not as senior as he is in the Quorum.

Like I said from the outset, Apostle Oaks is a liar.


Sounds to me like Oaks is more honest. At least he says he doesn't know, while there is no way the other guy knows.


Hi Harmony,

You give them credit - far more than I ever would. Yes, in the real world, they can't know such a thing. But, however, in the world of spirits and heart burns and miraculous healings, they do know.

And I still hold to the proposition that when Oaks is not under scrutiny, i.e., when he is not in public earshot, he lives in that spirit world where indeed he does know.

Of course, it is all bunk. But a lot of Mormons have been deceiving themselves for so long, that they don't have a clue what is up and what is down, what is black and what is white. I believe the Apostles fit into that category. I am not sure you do.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_gramps
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _gramps »

Blixa wrote:

Dear lord.


Dear lord is right.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil...
Adrian Beverland
_stemelbow
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _stemelbow »

gramps wrote:Of course, it is all bunk. But a lot of Mormons have been deceiving themselves for so long, that they don't have a clue what is up and what is down, what is black and what is white. I believe the Apostles fit into that category. I am not sure you do.


I just wanted to point out that this comes off as juvenile considering your accusation of lying isn't backed up with anything conclusively. You wish to paint it black and white, it seems, as if you are right and good and others are wrong and bad, but that just isn't reality. To generalize about a whole religion, attempting to implicate each and every member of it, is what is known as bigotry. I hope you reconsider your position and the words you decide to type.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

stemelbow wrote:
I just wanted to point out that this comes off as juvenile considering your accusation of lying isn't backed up with anything conclusively. You wish to paint it black and white, it seems, as if you are right and good and others are wrong and bad, but that just isn't reality. To generalize about a whole religion, attempting to implicate each and every member of it, is what is known as bigotry. I hope you reconsider your position and the words you decide to type.



Stem,

Gramps provided his personal experience, first hand accounts and eyewitness testimony. It doesn't get any better than that. Am I missing something? In your opinion, if this type of evidence is insufficient, then you obviously do not believe in the Gold Plates, Book of Mormon or anything else in the Church.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
_Jason Bourne
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Here is a link to an article about Hudson's comments:

http://www.sltrib.com/csp/cms/sites/slt ... d=52412444



Here are a couple strong remarks she made:


But what about the fact that, even today, Mormon men can marry more than once for eternity in an LDS temple ritual, but women can marry only one man?

That, Hudson quips, is “a vestige of androcentric [male-centered] understanding of the sealing order of the temple.”


Persistent beliefs about the return of polygamy or plural marriage in the afterlife, she adds, have had many negative consequences in the here and now.

Hudson knows Mormon men afflicted with what she calls “celestial lust.” They spend time figuring out how many wives they will have in the next life and LDS women who say they don’t want to go to heaven or be married in the temple because of the possibility of polygamy.


On another note, if Oaks is unhappy and wants to shut down some of FAIR's activity the recent coverage of the conference in the Church News and Mormon Times does not indicate that. Course the article may have gotten in before Oaks ire was raised.
_stemelbow
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Re: From My Informant: Oaks "Apoplectic" at FAIR & FARMS

Post by _stemelbow »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Stem,

Gramps provided his personal experience, first hand accounts and eyewitness testimony. It doesn't get any better than that. Am I missing something? In your opinion, if this type of evidence is insufficient, then you obviously do not believe in the Gold Plates, Book of Mormon or anything else in the Church.


Gramps claimed Oaks knows something, Oaks himself said he didn't know. he calls him a liar on such grounds. What does Gramps base it on? His assumption that since one person implicitly claims to know something related to what Oaks is talking about, that means Oaks is lying.

Color me unimpressed with is line of reasoning and your support of it. But its no wonder so many here are out attacking individual LDS people with such slippery grounds for mounting such attacks.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
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