Is there any concrete evidence that Joseph didn't consummate

[_Darth J]

Have you checked the children? Don't you think a 19th century horn dog like Smith would've knocked up a few of his wives along the way?

Laying aside (no pun intended) the admissions by several of Joseph Smith's concubines (he didn't have multiple wives, he had one: Emma) that he had sexual intercourse with them, this excuse is strikingly stupid. D&C 132:63 states that the purpose of plural marriage is "to multiply and replenish the earth." The response is that Joseph Smith failed to multiply and replenish the earth, the Lord's express purpose for plural marriage.

In other words, bcspace presents the "he was righteous because he disobeyed the commandments!" defense.

Buffalo, rest assured that you do not have the burden of proving that it happened. Defenders of the faith have the burden of showing that it didn't.

You guys are the ones making the accusations. The burden rests squarely on you.

And since there is ample direct testimony from the concubines themselves that Joseph Smith had sex with them, that burden has been met.

NOTE: Please remember that we are dealing with a person who claims that the teaching of the LDS Church that there was "no death before the Fall" really means massive death all over the world for millions and millions of years before the Fall, who posits that for undisclosed reasons God put non-human spirits into human bodies, then had those non-humans mate so God could put human spirits into the human-bodied offspring of the non-humans in human bodies-----this same person does not feel it is a valid presumption that when a man and a woman enter a purported (i.e., not legally recognized) marriage, they are having a sexual relationship.

[_Corpsegrinder]

You guys are the ones making the accusations. The burden rests squarely on you.

But is it still fair to say that Joseph wouldn't have entered into polygamy if Fanny hadn't sucked him into it?

[_bcspace]

You guys are the ones making the accusations. The burden rests squarely on you.

And since there is ample direct testimony from the concubines.

I don't think so. Some yes.

NOTE: Please remember that we are dealing with a person who claims that the teaching of the LDS Church that there was "no death before the Fall" really means massive death all over the world for millions and millions of years before the Fall,

What we're actually dealing with is someone who is willing to misrepresent the truth in order to make a point where none existed before. In this case, you forgot to state that there was a state of no death before the Fall.

who posits that for undisclosed reasons God put non-human spirits into human bodies, then had those non-humans mate so God could put human spirits into the human-bodied offspring of the non-humans in human bodies

It is already reported that God has put spirits into physical bodies and has created or organized millions of different types of spirits so positing this does not put any strain on what we already know God does. It also has the advantage of accepting all that generally accepted science accepts.

-----this same person does not feel it is a valid presumption that when a man and a woman enter a purported (i.e., not legally recognized) marriage, they are having a sexual relationship.

Not much living together going on and by the way.....have you checked the children?

You guys are the ones making the accusations. The burden rests squarely on you.

But is it still fair to say that Joseph wouldn't have entered into polygamy if Fanny hadn't sucked him into it?

Doesn't seem so.

[_Darth J]

You guys are the ones making the accusations. The burden rests squarely on you.

And since there is ample direct testimony from the concubines.

I don't think so. Some yes.

If you concede that there is direct evidence that some of Joseph Smith's concubines had sex with him, then what exactly are you disputing here?

NOTE: Please remember that we are dealing with a person who claims that the teaching of the LDS Church that there was "no death before the Fall" really means massive death all over the world for millions and millions of years before the Fall,

What we're actually dealing with is someone who is willing to misrepresent the truth in order to make a point where none existed before. In this case, you forgot to state that there was a state of no death before the Fall.

For example, when I said there was "no death before the Fall."

who posits that for undisclosed reasons God put non-human spirits into human bodies, then had those non-humans mate so God could put human spirits into the human-bodied offspring of the non-humans in human bodies

It is already reported that God has put spirits into physical bodies and has created or organized millions of different types of spirits so positing this does not put any strain on what we already know.

Thus only leaving us the considerable strain of lacking any reason at all to believe this.

-----this same person does not feel it is a valid presumption that when a man and a woman enter a purported (i.e., not legally recognized) marriage, they are having a sexual relationship.

Not much living together going on

That's right, because only people who cohabitate can have sex. But how lucky for him that the Partridge sisters moved in, huh?

and by the way.....have you checked the children?

My goodness, you're right! Joseph Smith irrefutably DID disobey the conditions of D&C 132 after all!

But is it still fair to say that Joseph wouldn't have entered into polygamy if Fanny hadn't sucked him into it?

Doesn't seem so.

It is truly heart-wrenching to think of the innocent Joseph Smith being taken advantage of by teenage girls.

[_bcspace]

If you concede that there is direct evidence that some of Joseph Smith's concubines had sex with him, then what exactly are you disputing here?

The OP asks about "even one of his marriages".

What we're actually dealing with is someone who is willing to misrepresent the truth in order to make a point where none existed before. In this case, you forgot to state that there was a state of no death before the Fall.

For example, when I said there was "no death before the Fall."

You didn't mention no death in the garden state prior to the Fall. Hence you misrepresented my hypothesis.

It is already reported that God has put spirits into physical bodies and has created or organized millions of different types of spirits so positing this does not put any strain on what we already know.

Thus only leaving us the considerable strain of lacking any reason at all to believe this.

You have invective, but no real examples......

Not much living together going on

That's right, because only people who cohabitate can have sex. But how lucky for him that the Partridge sisters moved in, huh?

Another error in correlation. See the OP.....

and by the way.....have you checked the children?

My goodness, you're right! Joseph Smith irrefutably DID disobey the conditions of D&C 132 after all!

How do you figure?

Doesn't seem so.

It is truly heart-wrenching to think of the innocent Joseph Smith being taken advantage of by teenage girls.

If you believe that, truly.

[_Darth J]

If you concede that there is direct evidence that some of Joseph Smith's concubines had sex with him, then what exactly are you disputing here?

The OP asks about "even one of his marriages".

And in fact he had sex with numerous concubines. BCSpace has successfully refuted the OP!

For example, when I said there was "no death before the Fall."

You didn't mention no death in the garden state prior to the Fall. Hence you misrepresented my hypothesis.

I was talking about what the LDS Church teaches, and it teaches that there was no death before the Fall, period. "No death only in the enclave of a paradisaical garden in Missouri, but massive death all over the world outside it" is not found in official LDS doctrine.

Thus only leaving us the considerable strain of lacking any reason at all to believe this.

You have invective, but no real examples......

And you are most welcome to correct that oversight with the numerous factual and doctrinal reasons to believe your theory that I'm sure are abundant beyond measure.

That's right, because only people who cohabitate can have sex. But how lucky for him that the Partridge sisters moved in, huh?

Another error in correlation. See the OP.....

Oh, come on. Probably at least SOME of the sex he had with the Partridge sisters was in his and Emma's home.

My goodness, you're right! Joseph Smith irrefutably DID disobey the conditions of D&C 132 after all!

How do you figure?

Let's see: D&C 132 says to multiply and replenish the earth, and he didn't do that, so.......

It is truly heart-wrenching to think of the innocent Joseph Smith being taken advantage of by teenage girls.

If you believe that, truly.

And Warren Jeffs being sent to prison because those underage girls seduced him has to be the worst case of "blame the victim" I have heard of in years.

[_Buffalo]

Not much living together going on and by the way.....have you checked the children?

Of course not. Joseph's affairs were meant to be hidden from Emma.

by the way... have you checked the availability of 19th century birth control? Joseph had plenty of options there. Unless there is direct evidence that he didn't have sex with any given wife, the logical assumption is that sex was had. If we can't find children, the logical assumption is that birth control was used ... and possibly abortion, as some witnesses testified.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of abstinence.

[_Buffalo]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of abstinence.

:D

[_Themis]

All we need is good evidence that Joseph had sex with some of his wives/concubines. We have that, and most apologists admit such. Lack of children can be explained easily because Joseph was a busy man with many women. He married many of them in the final few years before he was killed. Most importantly he and others at this time were trying hard to keep it secret, and Joseph was also trying to keep most of them secret from Emma. Abortion would be the best method for the single girls, and there is evidence of just that. There is also at least one child that still needs to be tested.

I find it very dishonest of people like Bcspace to admit that some were sexual and at the same time ask have you checked the children. They know Joseph was trying to keep what he was doing secret, and lied about it. Do they honestly think if Joseph hadn't been killed he would not have started having more children through these women as everyone else like BY started to do. How stupid can some apologists be. Many members can see just how dishonest they are being with this and other subjects about the church.