The Book of Mormon Loan-Shifting Game!

[_bcspace]

I don't think the loan-shifting hypothesis fairs well against the plates being translated by the gift and power of God. If Mormon used the word for "tapir" in his own language, then either the word would've been translated into English as "tapir" or if Joseph Smith did not know what a tapir was, then he would have been given a word like curelom or cumom.

So likewise if Joseph Smith had seen it in a vision. In that case, I find it highly unlikely Joseph Smith would've called them horses. I also find it equally unlikely that Lehi's family, coming into the new world, would've called tapirs horses.

[_Buffalo]

I don't think the loan-shifting hypothesis fairs well against the plates being translated by the gift and power of God. If Mormon used the word for "tapir" in his own language, then either the word would've been translated into English as "tapir" or if Joseph Smith did not know what a tapir was, then he would have been given a word like curelom or cumom.

So likewise if Joseph Smith had seen it in a vision. In that case, I find it highly unlikely Joseph Smith would've called them horses. I also find it equally unlikely that Lehi's family, coming into the new world, would've called tapirs horses.

An unusual degree of logic and reason from Mr. Space!

[_bcspace]

An unusual degree of logic and reason from Mr. Space!

The high degree of logic is always there, it's just that this time you're sober enough to comprehend it (seeing as how it's the sixth hour of the day).

Asses and elephants. Oh my!

[_Buffalo]

An unusual degree of logic and reason from Mr. Space!

The high degree of logic is always there, it's just that this time you're sober enough to comprehend it (seeing as how it's the sixth hour of the day).

Asses and elephants. Oh my!

I'm going to let that slide. I don't want to spoil your rare moment of clarity. :)

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

The Book of Mormon also talks about roads being made of cement. Michael Ash talks about cement roads built by the Mayans that are still around today, thinking this corroborates the Book of Mormon, but actually begging the question of why we can't find any Nephite cement roads if we can find Mayan cement roads. Same with cement used in constructing buildings in ancient Mesoamerica---if we can find such buildings made a long, long time ago by Mayans/Aztecs/etc., why can't we find any Nephite cement construction? http://www.mormonfortress.com/cement.html

The answer is simple. The purpose of the Book of Mormon is not to be a treatise on engineering or chemistry, but to bring people to Christ. It is entirely plausible that "cement" is how the ancient Nephites referred to mud. Thus, "cement dwellings" would be mud huts, cement highways would be roads paved with mud, etc. And this explains why there is no evidence of such construction now. I mean, come on. It's mud. It doesn't last forever.

Excellent points. Funny stuff. Kudos to Darth J.

[_ezravan]

The Book of Mormon has like 3500 changes in a hundred years. The Bible still has the original manuscripts with much less changes over 2000 years. Now yes, we are talking about scribe changes, but I buy this Book of Mormon changes and it is nothing compared to the Bible. It's like comparing Charlie brown to the Bible. these idiots changed their book 3500 times and changed doctrine. I read the Bible i greek and most the changes are for translation. I'm still looking for the doctrine changes in the original Bible scripts. Come the fu$& on. The Book of Mormon is toilet paper compared to the Bible. Were the angels speaking In king James 200 years after KJ. And copying the crap out of Isaiah. Mormon book is like my ass it's dirty and needs 3500 wipes.

[_beefcalf]

The Book of Mormon has like 3500 changes in a hundred years. The Bible still has the original manuscripts with much less changes over 2000 years. Now yes, we are talking about scribe changes, but I buy this Book of Mormon changes and it is nothing compared to the Bible. It's like comparing Charlie brown to the Bible. these idiots changed their book 3500 times and changed doctrine. I read the Bible i greek and most the changes are for translation. I'm still looking for the doctrine changes in the original Bible scripts. Come the fu$& on. The Book of Mormon is toilet paper compared to the Bible. Were the angels speaking In king James 200 years after KJ. And copying the s*** out of Isaiah. Mormon book is like my ass it's dirty and needs 3500 wipes.

Translation: My fictional book of paleolithic misogyny and genocide is better than your fictional book of paleolithic misogyny and genocide.

[_Buffalo]

The Book of Mormon has like 3500 changes in a hundred years. The Bible still has the original manuscripts with much less changes over 2000 years. Now yes, we are talking about scribe changes, but I buy this Book of Mormon changes and it is nothing compared to the Bible. It's like comparing Charlie brown to the Bible. these idiots changed their book 3500 times and changed doctrine. I read the Bible i greek and most the changes are for translation. I'm still looking for the doctrine changes in the original Bible scripts. Come the fu$& on. The Book of Mormon is toilet paper compared to the Bible. Were the angels speaking In king James 200 years after KJ. And copying the s*** out of Isaiah. Mormon book is like my ass it's dirty and needs 3500 wipes.

Translation: My fictional book of paleolithic misogyny and genocide is better than your fictional book of paleolithic misogyny and genocide.

To be fair, at least the Bible features some actual historical figures (if we leave out the Book of Mormon's ex post facto prophesies of Joseph Smith and Columbus)

[_Wisdom Seeker]

First I want to state that Darth is one analytical fella (seriously). Now let me give this a shot.

Odds are, Isaiah was authored by two or even three folks. The second and third portions of Isaiah were penned around 6th century BC and later making it very difficult for Lehi and his friendly band of immigrants to have access to a large portion of Isaiah. The time-line makes it very difficult for the Book of Mormon to include a significant portion of Isaiah yet when one reads within the covers one will find that the Book of Mormon does include these writings found in later Isaiah.

This is not a problem whatsoever. The scholars that have broken Isaiah down into two and even three different periods of writing are incorrect. Even if they are correct what is to stop divinity from shipping over portions of Isaiah to Nephi in order for Nephi's soul to delighteth in said Isaiah? Problem solved if there ever was a problem.

Have you ever considered that some portions of Isiah of the Old Testament really came from Nephi?

[_malkie]

I don't think the loan-shifting hypothesis fairs well against the plates being translated by the gift and power of God. If Mormon used the word for "tapir" in his own language, then either the word would've been translated into English as "tapir" or if Joseph Smith did not know what a tapir was, then he would have been given a word like curelom or cumom.

So likewise if Joseph Smith had seen it in a vision. In that case, I find it highly unlikely Joseph Smith would've called them horses. I also find it equally unlikely that Lehi's family, coming into the new world, would've called tapirs horses.

Sorry to threadjack (or to continue bcspace's threadjack), but:

1. If Mormon used the word for "tapir" in his own language, then why was the word not translated into English as "tapir", whether Joseph Smith knew what a tapir was or not. Why would he have been given a word like curelom or cumom that made no sense in English when there was a perfectly good English word available? What is the advantage to anyone of calling a tapir a curelom or cumom?

2. Hasn't the argument been made elsewhere that Joseph Smith didn't understand what he was writing, and that is why he seemed to think that the location of the Book of Mormon lands was North America, in spite of the apologists' preferences for somewhere else? Why, then, would it matter if he didn't know what a tapir was?

3. Was Joseph Smith just extremely lacking in curiosity? If I were him, I think I might have asked what these cureloms & cumoms were.

4. Was god being capricious, playing head games? He explained what a rameumptum was, but not what a curelom or cumom was.