Fence Sitter wrote:I would suggest that Fast and Testimony meeting and tithing settlement are the LDS version of an alter call and plate passing.
I would disagree as one is purely voluntary (I've never seen anyone rebuked for not bearing their testimony for an extended period) and one is confidential behind closed doors.
If by "purely voluntary" you mean one can always choose not to participate, I agree. But we both know there are consequences for not participating. Like the scout camp and the alter call there is social pressure to participate and failure to do so casts a stigma on those choosing not to. In a public situation like the scout camp, the alter call or F&T meeting it is uncomfortable for all concerned.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Fence Sitter wrote:If by "purely voluntary" you mean one can always choose not to participate, I agree. But we both know there are consequences for not participating. Like the scout camp and the alter call there is social pressure to participate and failure to do so casts a stigma on those choosing not to. In a public situation like the scout camp, the alter call or F&T meeting it is uncomfortable for all concerned.
I have to disagree here. F&T is nothing like the other 2 examples. You could never once bear your testimony and nobody would think twice about it.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
As reprehensible as this story is, Scottie, I think you can take solace in the fact that most young boys don't take these kinds of commitments seriously. I'm certain that had I been there as a boy, I'd have done the dog and pony show for the adults, all along thinking, "Yeah, sure, whatever."
Of course, I was well practiced at pretending to be Mormon. That was the essence of my life until I left my parents' home.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
Some Schmo wrote:As reprehensible as this story is, Scottie, I think you can take solace in the fact that most young boys don't take these kinds of commitments seriously. I'm certain that had I been there as a boy, I'd have done the dog and pony show for the adults, all along thinking, "Yeah, sure, whatever."
Of course, I was well practiced at pretending to be Mormon. That was the essence of my life until I left my parents' home.
I agree. I doubt any of these boys take it seriously.
What bothers me is the constant pounding into their brains that "being better men"=getting your eagle, getting the priesthood, going on a mission and marrying in the temple.
None of these have ANYTHING to do with how good of a man you are. I doubt that this one single lesson affected them much, but if you tell these boys this message 1000 times over the course of 10 years, it will.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
asbestosman wrote:True, but you have the ability to take them elsewhere on the days they are with you (at least I think so).
They pretty much don't go to church on my weekends. We usually go and play why my wife and her kids are at church. Hopefully it will embitter them against the church! :)
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Fence Sitter wrote:If by "purely voluntary" you mean one can always choose not to participate, I agree. But we both know there are consequences for not participating. Like the scout camp and the alter call there is social pressure to participate and failure to do so casts a stigma on those choosing not to. In a public situation like the scout camp, the alter call or F&T meeting it is uncomfortable for all concerned.
I have to disagree here. F&T is nothing like the other 2 examples. You could never once bear your testimony and nobody would think twice about it.
Like any other social group, you are judged by your participation. I find it unlikely that someone who does not publicly bear his/her testimony would be put in a leadership position of any import. While this may not be important to the person electing not to stand up, it still would have an effect on how they are viewed within the group.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
I would agree with the others, at that age I doubt the kids see themselves "bound" to any agreement.
Looking back on my scouting days so many years ago, this never would have worked with the troop I was in. If our leaders would have tried to gather us together for some sort of "spiritual experience" meeting on a campout we would have laughed at them, told them to "stick it", and then continue to stand around the fire like we always did. As scouts, we made it very clear to our leaders that there was a separation of church and scouting. We didn't go to church all day Sunday (pre-block time), and get up early each morning for seminary, to go on a campout and hear that crap there as well. Our leaders knew that if they tried to pull any church stuff on us (other than doing the sacrament on the rare times we were camping on a Sunday) they had better make it real good because we would never go on another campout again.
I remember once when our leaders tried to have a testimony building fireside chat with us. It was a disaster for them. Joseph Smith was his topic and he was trying to tell us what a courageous man he was. He told stories of how he had his leg operated on and refused to drink liquor to dull the pain. Then it was about him being tarred and feathered. By the time he got to Joseph running through the forest with the plates fending off attackers, we had had enough. One kid asked how he could be so evasive on a bum leg. Another asked how he could handle attackers while holding the plates and being exhausted from running. The leader said something to the effect that perhaps God gave Joseph "super powers" against the attackers. Haaa haaa. Oh my, then the flood gates opened - "Did Joseph have blue and red garments with a cape under his clothes?" "Was there a huge "S" for Smith on the chest of his super garments?" "Why didn't those super powers make the bullets bounce off of him when he was shot and killed?" "When he jumped out of the window, couldn't he have used those super powers to fly away?" The jokes and laughing just kept coming. The best question though, and the one that put an end to our little "faith promoting" fireside was, "Wasn't Joseph from a small town? Didn't everyone know each other pretty much and where they lived? If so, and the attackers in the woods knew Joseph was going home with his gold plates, why didn't they just wait for him at his house and kick his ass when he got there?" The leaders were struck dumb to the point of being left with only their testimonies to bare to us.
Ahhhhhhhhhh...scouting memories.
Red flags look normal when you're wearing rose colored glasses.
Fence Sitter wrote:Like the scout camp and the alter call there is social pressure to participate and failure to do so casts a stigma on those choosing not to. In a public situation like the scout camp, the alter call or F&T meeting it is uncomfortable for all concerned.
That is what I was disagreeing with. I have never seen anyone suffer under any kind of stigma for not getting up in F&T meetings.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics "I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo