There was also a highly entertaining discussion on the subject between Dr. Peterson and Jeff Ricks on the old MADB. Of course, since Jeff cleaned a few clocks on that thread, including Dr. Peterson's, the whole thread was deleted (not archived) when MADB finally gave up the ghost and decided to re-invent iself. Comment on this epic exchange can be seen here: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/19098/
Turns out that this is the MADB thread on which Dr. Peterson made his now nearly famous headscratcher:
"I cheerfully admit, and routinely say, that Mormonism has not proven its claims. I don't think it's supposed to do so, either, and, accordingly, I reject your claim that it has failed to do so."
If you go to the thread on post-mo, please note the response to this quote from Dr. Peterson, such as, well:
Here's a headscratcher from Dan Peterson:
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."
DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
There was also a highly entertaining discussion on the subject between Dr. Peterson and Jeff Ricks on the old MADB. Of course, since Jeff cleaned a few clocks on that thread, including Dr. Peterson's, the whole thread was deleted (not archived) when MADB finally gave up the ghost and decided to re-invent iself. Comment on this epic exchange can be seen here: http://www.postmormon.org/exp_e/index.php/discussions/viewthread/19098/
Turns out that this is the MADB thread on which Dr. Peterson made his now nearly famous headscratcher:
"I cheerfully admit, and routinely say, that Mormonism has not proven its claims. I don't think it's supposed to do so, either, and, accordingly, I reject your claim that it has failed to do so."
If you go to the thread on post-mo, please note the response to this quote from Dr. Peterson, such as, well:
Here's a headscratcher from Dan Peterson:
Thanks!
So, when I asked:
Has there really been no attempt at an effective apologetic response to this?
The answer to that would be 'No, there really has been no attempt at an effective apologetic response'.
Thought so.
About the only way out would be to try to junk the 'Caractors' MS by claiming it as another instance of 'the scribes did it'. The problem is that the damn thing has a very good pedigree, and has been presented as genuine by the late President Hinkley himself, among many others, in a line going back a long, long way.
Ho well - anything and anybody can be thrown under the bus in order to save dear old Joseph, so here we go!
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Buffalo wrote: A 60% match to a relatively modern short-hand system is rather compelling, don't you think?
Not even slightly because all the matches are too common of marks. Now if one of the complex glyphs had shown up, just one, or better if more, then you got it. You got wishful thinking. Jumping to conclusions because you need to sell a thought quickly like tabloid wastelands.
I can see your grasp of statistics is only exceeded by your grasp of history.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Of course that is Psalm 68 in Vulgate numbering, the one beginning:
'Salva me Deus quoniam venerunt aquae usque ad animam ' as you can just see in the non-Tironian writing under the stuff in capitals.
That is Psalm 69 in the KJV numbering familiar to Protestants, beginning:
'Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul. '
Nothing about 'and it came to pass', though ... so can it really be Reformed Egyptian?
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Nightlion wrote: Is that a seal barking or a dog? Hmm? Not close. You are too unfamiliar with the Caractors.
I admit I'm not expert on Tironian shorthand a.k.a. Reformed Egyptian. But then again, neither are you. Cool story: as a missionary I copied out the "Reformed Egyptian" onto the title page of my Book of Mormon. :D
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Nightlion wrote: Is that a seal barking or a dog? Hmm? Not close. You are too unfamiliar with the Caractors.
I admit I'm not expert on Tironian shorthand a.k.a. Reformed Egyptian. But then again, neither are you. Cool story: as a missionary I copied out the "Reformed Egyptian" onto the title page of my Book of Mormon. :D
You mean that you wrote your own facsimile of the Caractors on the title page of your Book of Mormon? There once was a give away edition of the Book of Mormon with a gold cover that had the Caractors on it.
Actually, I do claim expert status so far as my familiarity with The Caractors. What you do not realize is that the Caractors are more hieroglyphic than most ever imagined or supposed. More likely Reformed Egyptian is a hybrid hieroglyphic that sophisticated this manner of writing in the opposite direction from the hieratic and demotic.
Understanding the greatness of their words it supposes me that the Nephites compounded glyphs together and used just the head of that compound to represent the entire thought when engraving. Like the frequent repetition of: And it came to pass, was possibly just a jot for engraving purposes and convenient to move the story along sacrificing the weakness of just how banal it is to read it so often. Hence Moroni worried about it.
Nightlion wrote: You mean that you wrote your own facsimile of the Caractors on the title page of your Book of Mormon? There once was a give away edition of the Book of Mormon with a gold cover that had the Caractors on it.
Actually, I do claim expert status so far as my familiarity with The Caractors. What you do not realize is that the Caractors are more hieroglyphic than most ever imagined or supposed. More likely Reformed Egyptian is a hybrid hieroglyphic that sophisticated this manner of writing in the opposite direction from the hieratic and demotic.
Understanding the greatness of their words it supposes me that the Nephites compounded glyphs together and used just the head of that compound to represent the entire thought when engraving. Like the frequent repetition of: And it came to pass, was possibly just a jot for engraving purposes and convenient to move the story along sacrificing the weakness of just how banal it is to read it so often. Hence Moroni worried about it.
My understanding is that some of the characters are actually legit Egyptian. However, Joseph had access to those too, which were published in a local newspaper or something like that. So 60% from a post-Nephitic short-hand that he had access to, and the rest from other sources, which he also had access to. It doesn't look good for Joseph.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
