I think stem is trying to say that "the church" should not be held accountable for the actions of the people of the church when they are acting outside of the authority of the church.... which the MMM saints were.
Of course, arguments can (and have) been made that there is fairly heavy circumstantial evidence that BY ordered the massacre, but that is a whole other topic.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
Characterizing the church's behavior as abusive is insulting to all those who live in actual abusive situations.
Anyone can leave the church anytime they want. That is not the case in many if not most abusive situations.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
I think stem is trying to say that "the church" should not be held accountable for the actions of the people of the church when they are acting outside of the authority of the church.... which the MMM saints were.
Of course, arguments can (and have) been made that there is fairly heavy circumstantial evidence that BY ordered the massacre, but that is a whole other topic.
I'm not sure that was the case. Any organization must take responsibility for the decisions of its leadership. And given the small size of the church at that time, If I recall correctly the leadership of the church directly involved in MMM were accountable for a sizable proportion of the church itself.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
harmony wrote:Anyone can leave the church anytime they want. That is not the case in many if not most abusive situations.
Bull.
By this logic I could just as easily say that anybody can leave an abusive relationship any time they want.
I don't believe that, and I don't believe that adherants of religion can simply leave any time they want. There are much more powerful factors at play.
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
harmony wrote:Characterizing the church's behavior as abusive is insulting to all those who live in actual abusive situations.
Anyone can leave the church anytime they want. That is not the case in many if not most abusive situations.
That's the case now, I concede. Not necessarily in Brigham Young's church. But yes, you can leave now. Of course, an abused woman can leave a bad relationship too. But there will be consequences.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
Buffalo wrote:I'm not sure that was the case. Any organization must take responsibility for the decisions of its leadership. And given the small size of the church at that time, If I recall correctly the leadership of the church directly involved in MMM were accountable for a sizable proportion of the church itself.
What was the proportion? I'm not sure you're making a good case on this, but I'd like to know the proportion anyway.
On top of that, your initial argument was that the Church, currently, is abusive. Not that 150 plus years ago something happened that can be characterized as the Church being abusive. Everyone here seems to agree--the Church has changed to some extent.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Buffalo wrote: Any organization must take responsibility for the decisions of its leadership.
Someone should probably tell the government that.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
People who leave the church aren't beat to within an inch of their life (or beyond). The worst they suffer is divorce, and maybe loss of employment or if at BYU, time for education.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO