RfM--why it's a useless site. (Simon will love this!)

[_DarkHelmet]

Have you ever been to an LDS ring ceremony? Because what DarkHelmet has described is basically exactly what I've seen at EVERY ring ceremony I've been to. Bishops absolutely do use the ceremony as a platform to discuss the importance of the temple sealing and gospel. When we were meeting with the stake president before getting married, we were specifically instructed that while a ring ceremony would be appropriate, we needed to take care that it was simple enough that it did not detract from the primary importance of the temple ordinance or give the impression that it was a wedding ceremony.

Let me try this again: the ring ceremony comes after the temple ceremony. Find a nice park to have the ring ceremony and take it from there. One can even hire someone who can perform such ceremonies. It makes no difference because the temple wedding has already taken place. No bishop involvement at all. Or one can talk to the bishop about it beforehand. Since the people have already been married the ring ceremony can take place in the elvis presley chapel in a pink caddy.

Let me try this again: There are church-dictated guidelines for ring ceremonies that prevent your idealized scenario. A person is not "hired" to perform the ceremony. A priesthood authority conducts it, and it involves explaining the importance of the temple sealing that all the unworthies missed. The church has instructed that ring ceremonies should be modest, church-oriented, and not detract from the significance of the sealing ordinance in any way. Your Vegas-chapel scenario is the ANTITHESIS of what the church has instructed that a ring ceremony should be. For a faithful, believing member, your version of what a ring ceremony should be, is completely unrealistic.

Isn't it simply amazing how very little whyme actually knows about the nature and practice of the church about which he posts so much? Even I could have told him how completely out of line with church directives his fantasies were.

LOL. I sometimes wonder if he has ever actually been a Mormon. To plan your own ring ceremony and leave your church leaders out of the loop would be unimaginable to a TBM, and unacceptable to their church leaders. I believe instructions for ring ceremonies are in the CHI, so it is not something members can do on their own. Whyme doesn't understand how much control the LDS church has over their members, which is one of the big complaints of critics and exmos. If he is a jack Mormon type that just ignores his leaders, maybe that is why he doesn't understand why people have such a problem with Mormonism.

[_cafe crema]

And eventually I was called a liar, a fake, a fraud etc.

This seems to happen to you where ever you go, imagine that.

[_RayAgostini]

Why am I here? To counter the negativity about the LDS church.

I think there are times when you’ve made worthwhile points, but overall, I think beastie may be right.

I do not see the church as evil with people out to brainwash the world. I just see a group of people, including the leaders as human beings who are just trying to do good for themselves and for their families with an eye toward eternal life. Basically I see Mormons as good people and good neighbors.

On that we agree.

Now if the church was ever proven false, fine. I would feel sorry for the active members. Their world would be devastated.

For many it has been proven false. Most of the exmos and critics posting here were once “active members”, who were “devastated”, and perhaps you should feel sorry for them (and a bit more empathetic). I know it hasn’t been proven false for you, but try to look at it from their point of view. It would be better to say less, or even nothing, rather than inflame the situation.

Ray, I have no delusion where I am heading if the LDS church is true regardless of my thousands of posts defending the LDS church.

I hope you have a safe "spiritual" journey, and an enlightening one.

[_why me]

Isn't it simply amazing how very little whyme actually knows about the nature and practice of the church about which he posts so much? Even I could have told him how completely out of line with church directives his fantasies were.

I prescribe a lot of reading of RfM if whyme wants to learn how the CoJCoLDS operates at the 'sharp end' of its relations with the LDS unworthy, the apostate and the nevermo. The stories aren't nice, and they mostly don't have happy endings, and unsurprisingly people post about their anger and sense of insult and rejection. And you know what? That aspect of it is very often the simple consequence of the way the CoJCoLDS deliberately chooses to handle these things.

Well, chap, I am one of those LDS unworthy and I have had no problems. In fact, the district leader introduced me today to a couple of senior missionaries as the mormon-catholic member. No problem. And I ask a branch president who is a friend of mine about the ring ceremony and he said that he has no involvement in what the couple wish to say during the ceremony and he certainly wouldn't use it as a plug for the temple to get guys like me to go and be worthy.

So, when it comes to unworthy members, apostates etc, I am sure that much also depends on the unworthy member and apostate and the local leaders who used to be or are their friends.

[_why me]

And eventually I was called a liar, a fake, a fraud etc.

This seems to happen to you where ever you go, imagine that.

And that is because people tend to be intolerant. Taliban catholics can not accept my description as a mormon-catholic as I listed myself on the taliban catholic site. And former members and apostates do not like that I have been inactive for so many years and defend the LDS church. So, labeling in the negative becomes the rule.

[_why me]

LOL. I sometimes wonder if he has ever actually been a Mormon. To plan your own ring ceremony and leave your church leaders out of the loop would be unimaginable to a TBM, and unacceptable to their church leaders. I believe instructions for ring ceremonies are in the CHI, so it is not something members can do on their own. Whyme doesn't understand how much control the LDS church has over their members, which is one of the big complaints of critics and exmos. If he is a jack Mormon type that just ignores his leaders, maybe that is why he doesn't understand why people have such a problem with Mormonism.

Well, my friend the branch president wouldn't give a hoot. And I tend to believe him. Members can do anything they want once they have been married in the temple. If they wish to have a private ring ceremony for inlaws, mom or dad etc they can. They are already married so the ceremony is just a formality.

I see no control with the Mormons I know. They are just going about their life to the best of their ability. Now there are differences in mentalities but more or less there is a lot of tolerance.

[_why me]

Why am I here? To counter the negativity about the LDS church.

I think there are times when you’ve made worthwhile points, but overall, I think beastie may be right.

I think that the problem Ray is that I don't fit into their mold. Most likely many of the people on this forum when they were active, would have probably judged me a little harshly as members. So, it is no surprise that they can not understand an inactive's viewpoint. When you read the posts of critics and former members here, on the postmo or rfm, they post as if all Mormons are the same. All bishops are the same etc. It is not true. I suppose what gauls me is their blanket generalisms. In all my years as an inactive, I have never experienced harsh treatment by any active member or leader. No one has called me to repentance etc. I come to church, they say hi and hello. Those who I have known for years don't try to convince me and those who I have known for a short time, don't seem to mind my inactivity either. Live and let live...seems to be the motto.

[_why me]

For many it has been proven false. Most of the exmos and critics posting here were once “active members”, who were “devastated”, and perhaps you should feel sorry for them (and a bit more empathetic). I know it hasn’t been proven false for you, but try to look at it from their point of view. It would be better to say less, or even nothing, rather than inflame the situation.

For many they wish to believe that it has been proven false. But lets face it...on the deathbed they still really don't know. But they may hope that it is false. Here is what would prove it false beyond a shadow of a doubt: a old manucript appears with the Book of Mormon text in sidney's writing complete with corrections etc. Or emma at some point in her life would have claimed that she was present when Joseph wrote the book and how he struggled over names for the main characters.

Or if 4 or 5 witnesses would have retracted their statements and said it was all a hoax. I don't think that the church would have lasted two years.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Oh. So, when you state your opinion as you see it, it's venting and letting off steam, but when people you disagree with at RfM state their opinions, it's "whinning". Hmmm.

I guess we'll have to call him Why Nne instead of Why Ne, now. An "n" was missing all along!

KA

[_RayAgostini]

I think that the problem Ray is that I don't fit into their mold. Most likely many of the people on this forum when they were active, would have probably judged me a little harshly as members.

I think that's a fair point, and probably true.

So, it is no surprise that they can not understand an inactive's viewpoint. When you read the posts of critics and former members here, on the postmo or rfm, they post as if all Mormons are the same. All bishops are the same etc. It is not true. I suppose what gauls me is their blanket generalisms. In all my years as an inactive, I have never experienced harsh treatment by any active member or leader. No one has called me to repentance etc. I come to church, they say hi and hello. Those who I have known for years don't try to convince me and those who I have known for a short time, don't seem to mind my inactivity either. Live and let live...seems to be the motto.

I think that's a fair point too. You have good relations with Mormons, and there's no reason you should jeopardise that. "Live and let live" should, though, also extend to those who no longer believe. If people need to vent, then let them vent. It's their personal therapy. You have to look beyond "online" actions or words, and even "generalisations" about the Church. I already gave an example of Australian WW2 veterans who still hate the Japanese. While I don't think this is a healthy or balanced view, I can't really judge or condemn them, because I was never skin and bone wasting away in a Japanese concentration camp. The last thing I'd want to offer such people is a flippant, "get over it". And I suppose someone will complain about this comparison.