The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

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_moksha
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _moksha »

bcspace wrote:It goes without saying that Bokovoy has already shown he is against the principles of the UO so who is he really a scout for may I ask?


The word scout was used to tie the first paragraph into the second, although I might suggest that David is thrifty, reverent, clean and also helps old ladies cross the street whether they want to or not. He probably can also set up camp, start a fire and barbecue pork butt under the stars. For what it is worth, I think you and Loran should be allowed to discuss politics. Everyone's opinion is valued as long as it doesn't involve reporting this board to the DMCA or snake handling without an adequate supply of anti-venom.
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_3sheets2thewind
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _3sheets2thewind »

bcspace wrote:
Not really. In my case, I typically wait to chime in against a left wing agenda which is anti Gospel by definition. But as we know, and Droopy has pointed out, the left wing agenda is a protected class on the MDD.


and what is the left wing agenda? I have asked you this on another thread and after I pointed out that several "left wingers" opposed things you are opposed, you let the thread.

So what is the left wing agenda.
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _bcspace »

Not really. In my case, I typically wait to chime in against a left wing agenda which is anti Gospel by definition. But as we know, and Droopy has pointed out, the left wing agenda is a protected class on the MDD.

and what is the left wing agenda? I have asked you this on another thread and after I pointed out that several "left wingers" opposed things you are opposed, you let the thread.

So what is the left wing agenda.


In the Church? Usually socialism and the welfare state though it can extend to alternative lifestyles etc. Now it's time to answer the question as what exactly is it that the John Birch Society supports that's in opposition to LDS doctrine since it's being bandied about as an epithet.
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_Droopy
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Droopy »

It is my opinion, that if one were to put all the persons I mentioned in a room together and a political discussion was started you all would turn on each accusing each of be a leftist liberal. The reason this is so, is because at some point someone else will not be "conservative enough", thus the need for labels like leftist and liberal.


This is just indicative of what is apparently your significant lack of understanding of the various subject areas encompassed by political philosophy, political science, and allied areas of study.

What I find truly fascinating about the use of such childish terms is that none of you can define with any degree of reasonable articulation what a "leftist" or "liberal" is.


This is simply nonsense. I've defined both conservatism and leftism, in broad outline, on numerous occasions, both here and on the MADboard. If you missed it, that can hardly be placed on my head.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Droopy »

I'm not sure whether you got the memo but it appears that President Joseph Smith when he was attempting to do a Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky with Nancy Rigdon claimed:

"Our heavenly Father is more liberal in His views, and boundless in His mercies and blessings, than we are ready to believe or receive."

God a liberal? Maybe that is the real reason Joseph Smith was martyred at Carthage Jail? Do you think he would be martyred again if he was born in this day and age in Utah and dared to teach such controversial doctrine?



I hardly see any reason to point out the lexical definition of the term "liberal" and its demarcation from the political label "liberal" that represents a particular school of thought of political philosophy, represents a modern usage that has no bearing on the dictionary term. Indeed, the theft of the term "liberal" from its authentic domain is among the greatest ideological and sociocultural dog and pony shows in all of modern social history.

"Liberalism," since the end of WWII and especially since the late sixties, when its moment in the sun really came, should more properly be placed in its traditional setting as "leftism" or "progressivism" (itself a term of "political correctness" that conceals more than it clarifies) as it was known in the earlier part of the 20th century and as that term is still used today, in many quarters.

The various schools of socialism (including "communism"), Fabianism, left-wing anarchism, fascism, and National Socialism, the New Deal and the Great Society welfare state are all manifestations of the "Left" as it has developed and differentiated in different nations at different times throughout the 20th century to the present. The "New Left" of the late sixties, and its remnants today, are an eclectic blend of a number of concepts and tendencies within the Left that have been present, in one form or another, for some two centuries, but which coalesced in that all important era of the late sixties-early seventies.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Tarski
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:
The various schools of socialism (including "communism"), Fabianism, left-wing anarchism, fascism, and National Socialism, the New Deal and the Great Society welfare state are all manifestations of the "Left" as it has developed and differentiated in different nations at different times throughout the 20th century to the present.


Does anyone else think this is just bizarre? Are really seriously supposed to see Franco as leftist?
All his social ideals were conservative and he had the support of the Catholic church. Of course, Droopy is not alone in this nuttiness and I am sure he can point to some other online rant that tries to see all retrospectively disfavored historical political movements (including Francoism) as being leftist. After all, to Droopy, leftism is just a synonym for "bad"--and well, Franco was bad right?
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Droopy
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Droopy »

Not really. In my case, I typically wait to chime in against a left wing agenda which is anti Gospel by definition. But as we know, and Droopy has pointed out, the left wing agenda is a protected class on the MDD.


We have Julianne, who thinks postmodernism has something positive to contribute to the Church and to a renewed legitimation of religion as such, that has never been made clear to me but which I suspect has something to do with a very narrow reading of its general views upon the concept of the social construction of "truth."

We have David Bokovoy and a host of like minded intellectuals who have, following a long tradition of people like Paul Tillich and others (such as the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Maryknolls, the National Council of Churches etc.) come to see Christianity (in this case, the restored gospel) as a vindication and fulfillment of a romantic vision of a collectivist, egalitarian utopia which can now be given the imprimatur of divine sanction.

This is by far the most destructive (and apparently popular) of the various attempts to bring cherished notions and beliefs from the world into the Church and domesticate them, and its the place where the most rancorous debate takes place. The reason for the heat and sparks generated by such discussions, is not, in my experience, the degree of disagreement on basic principles themselves, as large as they may be, but the insinuation or implication in much of it that anyone (and by definition, numerous General Authorities) who does not subscribe to a broadly socialistic, collectivist, "communitarian" view of the United Order and what an optimum society (a Zion society) would look like, is, in some sense, spiritually weaker, less morally serious, and less committed to the gospel and its "true" ideals then one who has appended the "correct" political and economic doctrines to that very gospel.

Open, competitive, free market economic relations, property rights, and the overarching importance of the individual and his integrity as such are seen and denounced as outside the gospel and a sign of spiritual weakness, if not outright venality (the emotionally charged specter of "greed," sweeping denunciations of the "rich" and of affluent people as a class, and the romanticization and valorization of the poor (again, as a class. Individual distinctions disappear on the Left to be replaced by broad theoretical/ideological categories) are in abundant display during such discussions).

I have been morally denounced in severe terms on many occasions for defending free markets, private property rights, the rule of law, opposition to protectionism and coerced unionism, and for saying that I want as many of the poor as possible to be affluent and prosperous. Yes, you heard this correctly.

My entire argument there (MAD) has always been that Zion would be a vigorous, free, dynamic economy in which, while the poor would be taken care of effectively and substantially, and while the vast poles of wealth would be substantially decreased at the margins, the fundamental basis of that system would be an expansion of present welfare principles, which, at their core, are centered in the creation of self sufficiency and economic independence.

The focus in Zion, then, will not be raising the poor at the expense of others, but of raising as many as possible to the point of economic independence. For this, I have been called, perhaps, not every name in the book, but enough such that its clear that supporting what the Prophets and Apostles of the Lord have themselves taught consistently as a consensus view in this area makes me, in the eyes of what we might call a "neo-orthodox" LDS left, a bit of a heretic, if not apostate (and, of course, "oppressor."), at least in the sense of being morally callous to those in need (not because I don't actually feel deep sympathy for those in economic need and help them when I can - I do - but because of my holding of an incorrect ideology respecting the nature of poverty, its place in the larger scheme of things, and the best way to approach its alliviation).

When the claims of heretic and apostate are thrown back in the other direction, and made explicit, great cries of moral outrage are heard and the banning begins.

It goes without saying that Bokovoy has already shown he is against the principles of the UO so who is he really a scout for may I ask?


David was told (not by me, in the first instance) that he was, in essence, teaching "another gospel" to the and was asked for his authority to do so, as well as to imply that those who disagree with him were ignorant of the scriptures and were less than faithful Saints (if not moral pariahs "grinding upon the faces" of the poor by the simple fact of their being middle class or above).

The bannings that took place on that thread (the "United Firm") were almost, if not 100%, among his detractors. David and his supporters there were allowed to go on and on and on unmolested by the mods, and that thread produced spin-off threads concentrating on variations of the same theme, in which, inevitably, conservative/libertarian critics got the ax, and David et al were allowed to go on promoting personal philosophical views under the guise of discussing biblical scholarship and textual criticism.

Its an interesting thing, given the overwhelming bias of the vast majority of LDS ("Chapel" Mormons, I suppose) as I've encountered them in my life in the Church, toward the "Right," to have encountered this a significant leftist trend among some of its elite intellectuals. I had no idea this even existed (except for Nibley) until I began computing nearly 15 years ago.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Droopy »

Droopy wrote:The various schools of socialism (including "communism"), Fabianism, left-wing anarchism, fascism, and National Socialism, the New Deal and the Great Society welfare state are all manifestations of the "Left" as it has developed and differentiated in different nations at different times throughout the 20th century to the present.


Tarski wrote:Does anyone else think this is just bizarre? Are really seriously supposed to see Franco as leftist?
All his social ideals were conservative and he had the support of the Catholic church. Of course, Droopy is not alone in this nuttiness and I am sure he can point to some other online rant that tries to see all retrospectively disfavored historical political movements (including Francoism) as being leftist. After all, to Droopy, leftism is just a synonym for "bad"--and well, Franco was bad right?


Franco was a fascist, and fascism is a sect, or school, of socialism and a phenomena of the Left, as anyone who has seriously studied the history, doctrines, and tendencies of the Left well understands (and who isn't either a CNN/public school educated drone, a useful idiot, or worse)
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Tarski
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Tarski »

Droopy wrote:
Droopy wrote:The various schools of socialism (including "communism"), Fabianism, left-wing anarchism, fascism, and National Socialism, the New Deal and the Great Society welfare state are all manifestations of the "Left" as it has developed and differentiated in different nations at different times throughout the 20th century to the present.


Tarski wrote:Does anyone else think this is just bizarre? Are really seriously supposed to see Franco as leftist?
All his social ideals were conservative and he had the support of the Catholic church. Of course, Droopy is not alone in this nuttiness and I am sure he can point to some other online rant that tries to see all retrospectively disfavored historical political movements (including Francoism) as being leftist. After all, to Droopy, leftism is just a synonym for "bad"--and well, Franco was bad right?


Franco was a fascist, and fascism is a sect, or school, of socialism and a phenomena of the Left, as anyone who has seriously studied the history, doctrines, and tendencies of the Left well understands (and who isn't either a CNN/public school educated drone, a useful idiot, or worse)


As usual you say nothing.
What facts about Franco made him leftist? Was it his opposition to the socialism of the opposing party in the Spanish civil war? Was it his embracing of traditional conservative social and religious institutions? Was it his opposition to the proto-feminist movements extant in the years prior to his rise?
Maybe it is in retrospect? After all, to this very day folks in Spain who are nostalgic for the days of Franco constantly lament the way society has become so liberal and decadent in Spain since Franco's demise.

By the way, my wife is from Spain and she lived under Franco. To her nothing is more obvious than the fact that Franco represented an opposition to liberal values. The Franco lovers in Spain are best to be compared to the right in the USA (this is how she sees it). Well, you know better than her and better than mainstream historians to boot.

Now, instead of giving substantive counter argument, go ahead and say something about pablum or CNN or public schools or some other of your usual nonsubstantive BS.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_Droopy
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Re: The Long March Through FAIR: How Big Can the Tent Become?

Post by _Droopy »

What facts about Franco made him leftist? Was it his opposition to the socialism of the opposing party in the Spanish civil war? Was it his embracing of traditional conservative social and religious institutions? Was it his opposition to the proto-feminist movements extant in the years prior to his rise?
Maybe it is in retrospect? After all, to this very day folks in Spain who are nostalgic for the days of Franco constantly lament the way society has become so liberal and decadent in Spain since Franco's demise.


Franco was a dictator and autocrat, and although I have not studied much about him, I do no that he was in no way a believer in liberal democracy. In any case, to the degree Franco's Spain exhibited a fascistic orientation or economic principles, it drank from the well of the Left. Mussolini was a socialist, and was so all of his life. The sect or version of socialism he founded, fascism (a bundle of sticks, a collectivist whole bound by economic, national and ethnic collectivism) was a phenomena of the Left, and remains so today.

By the way, my wife is from Spain and she lived under Franco. To her nothing is more obvious than the fact that Franco represented an opposition to liberal values.


What are you trying to argue here? Of course he did? And? So does socialism. Socialism is the antithesis of liberalism (in its original sense). Franco, a dictator and autocrat, fought against the loyalist forces in Spain backed by the Soviet Union. So here, as in Germany in the thirties, we had one form of authoritarian repression battling another for supremacy in one country.

The Franco lovers in Spain are best to be compared to the right in the USA (this is how she sees it). Well, you know better than her and better than mainstream historians to boot.


Sorry, but anyone who seriously thinks that Francoist fascism and the American "Right" are similar in nature is grossly ignorant and intellectually disoriented regarding what the "right" in the United States is (and perhaps, by extension, even what Francoism was in her own country. Just living through something guarantees nothing regarding understanding or wisdom. After all, countless Americans live here, but understand very little of substance about their own political system, or the history of their own culture).

Now, instead of giving substantive counter argument, go ahead and say something about pablum or CNN or public schools or some other of your usual nonsubstantive BS.


Some day, when you get yourself an edjumacation, come and talk to me, Tarski.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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