The snake in the garden of eden

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _Hoops »


Surely die and begin to die are very different. Do you have any references for your interpretation/translation?

I'm sorry. I don't see the distinction that you do. They both tell us death is inevitable. Which would surely be a startling new concept for them to contend with.
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _Hoops »


Please quote Gen 2:17 from whatever translation you are using and please cite the translation.

Thanks!

Sorry. I was going from memory earlier.

Here's one that makes the same point though.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=ASV
_Jersey Girl
_Emeritus
Posts: 34407
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:16 am

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Here is the verse according to the ASV link that you provided:

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


It says "in the day", not "on that day", not "on that very day" it says...

"in the day".

I think that changes the contextual time frame of the warning.

What say you?
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _Hoops »

Jersey Girl wrote:Here is the verse according to the ASV link that you provided:

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


It says "in the day", not "on that day", not "on that very day" it says...

"in the day".

I think that changes the contextual time frame of the warning.

What say you?


Yes, you're right. I was assuming that JM's crticism lie with "day" rather than "in" or "on". As I wrote, I was working from memory and got it wrong. If that, indeed, where her criticism occurred, the next critique would be, "why is 'day' in Gen 1 a 24 hour day yet this "day" is an age. The surrounding verses/text demand that Gen 1 be a single day. For example: Gen 1:5 tells us that day was "the first day", the beginning of time, the beginning history. Secondly, there is an evening, and then a morning and an evening. That clearly points to a traditional day, with periods of light and dark. A bit off topic, but there you have it.
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _consiglieri »

Hoops wrote: For example: JM brought up the point that this passage makes God a liar. We know from other scripture that this can not be so. So how do we reconcile the two?


By concluding that a lying God is lying again when He says he doesn't lie?



But seriously, the "harmonization" game is one that always leads to the scriptures telling you exactly what you believed in the first place. This is the attitude that allows one to be ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I love you dearly, Hoops.

But I must be brutal.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _Hoops »


By concluding that a lying God is lying again when He says he doesn't lie?



But seriously, the "harmonization" game is one that always leads to the scriptures telling you exactly what you believed in the first place. This is the attitude that allows one to be ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I love you dearly, Hoops.

But I must be brutal.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Both verses have equal weight or value. Yet, both must be true. All I did was ask how to reconcile these two with each other and the rest of the Bible.
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _consiglieri »

Hoops wrote:
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. Both verses have equal weight or value. Yet, both must be true. All I did was ask how to reconcile these two with each other and the rest of the Bible.


I understand you don't think that is what you are saying, Hoops.

But the fact remains it is precisely what you are doing, whether you realize it or not.

For example, my proposed harmonization of the conflicting passages is just as valid as yours--i.e., that God is a liar who lies when he says he doesn't lie.

Why should your harmonization be preferred over mine?

In answering that question, you may begin to see the truth of what I am saying.

Snatch the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper . . .


All the Best!

--Master Polieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Hoops
_Emeritus
Posts: 2863
Joined: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _Hoops »


I understand you don't think that is what you are saying, Hoops.

But the fact remains it is precisely what you are doing, whether you realize it or not.

For example, my proposed harmonization of the conflicting passages is just as valid as yours--i.e., that God is a liar who lies when he says he doesn't lie.

Why should your harmonization be preferred over mine?

In answering that question, you may begin to see the truth of what I am saying.

Snatch the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper . . .


All the Best!

--Master Polieri

I know exactly what you're saying, I've seen this criticism before. Why should my harmonization be preferred over yours? By the bulk of the Biblical and contextual evidence. I suppose when one begins with the presupposition that the Bible is the inerrant word of God (I know, you know what I mean by this) then due diligence is necessary. I.e. they must be reconciled in some way. This is, of course, assuming some things: 1) that the passage can be understood; 2) that the passage is intended to be understood; 3) that other passages can/will add to our understanding. There are other factors, as you know, but this suffices for my specific example. For one to claim that any and all interpretations should have equal standing is simply unwarranted.

Speaking of which, I certainly concede that my specific example may not be relevant to the point of our discussion. Right now, it is to me, but it may not work for you. That doesn't mean that there are none that can work for you. But that's another argument. The principle stands. We allow plain and clear passages to help explain those that are less so.
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _consiglieri »

Hoops wrote: We allow plain and clear passages to help explain those that are less so.



Would you accept that the Bible is plain and clear that God lied to Adam and Eve?

If not, why not?

It is not yet time for you to go, Grasshopper.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_just me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9070
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:46 pm

Re: The snake in the garden of eden

Post by _just me »

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



I don't see anything unclear about this passage. It reads very straight forward. In fact, it is supposed to be a quote of God talking. Shouldn't God speak clearly and simply? If he meant you will become mortal then he could easily have said "you will become mortal." Again, becoming mortal and being told you will die are two different things.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Post Reply