Something Troubling in Sunday School

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_consiglieri
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _consiglieri »

stemelbow wrote:
Saying the priesthood ban against women is wrong doesn't make slavery not more wrong.

Nobody is saying this except you, Stem.


Certainly even Buffalo agrees I didn't say what you are saying I said.


I understand why the double negative (actually quadruple negative when you take into account the two "wrongs") may be difficult to decipher.

Heck, I may have confused myself.

But if you take into account the second "not" right after "slavery," I think you will find I wasn't attributing something reprehensible to you.

Can we get an English teacher referee in here?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_Buffalo
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _Buffalo »

stemelbow wrote:
Saying the priesthood ban against women is wrong doesn't make slavery not more wrong.

Nobody is saying this except you, Stem.


Certainly even Buffalo agrees I didn't say what you are saying I said. You can surely agree I didn't say anything like that, right? it ain't tough to apologize--you kind of apologized for something already, I just don't know what you mean to apologize.


What I was trying to get at, Stem, was that you misunderstood what he was getting at. Admittedly it was murky/unclear the way he put it. Or maybe I misunderstood it too.

In any case, I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_stemelbow
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _stemelbow »

just me wrote:Here is the comparison. A slave thanking the person who is in control for what little he does get. A woman thanking the person who is in control for what little she does get. It is a fine comparison. Nobody said her current situation was as bad as being in slavery.


I don’t’ see that anywhere in Consig’s post. The woman was not thanking anyone for what little she does get. There’s no comparison to be made, if’n you want to add such an attempted charitable re-interpretation to what he said. But whatever.

But, if you will drop it, consig has apologized and we can all move on to what could be a fruitful conversation. K?


I offered to drop it pages ago, but I renew my offer. If people will leave it alone, I will too. I simply can’t accept the silly justifications and reclassifications people are putting to it.

Why do you think it is a "moot point?" It is the point of what we are discussing!


Its moot to my point.

THIS IS THE ISSUE!!! This is what the thread is about stem!


You can reasonably see I have focused on one thing Consig said. Responses to my post are to be focused on that point raised by Consig. But I’m willing to drop it.

I may not be her but I have sat in Relief Society for, um 17 years and heard it repeated over and over again. I have even said variations of the same thing. So, yes, I have a very good idea what this woman and my other sisters in the church say and even how they might think or feel.


You may think so. But really, that is merely assumption. You must assume she was being disingenuous. I don’t think that’s fair. Its fair enough if Consig wants to, for at elast he knows her.
And I didn't say she was disingenuous. Not at all. She has convinced herself that her words are true. But, they have to be repeated every once in a while to make it stick.


That is what is disingenuous to be clear.

Never said I didn't like you stem. Not even close. You make a stand on peripheral things and I would enjoy seeing you make a stand on the actual topics we are discussing.

You seem to not realize the position women have held throughout most of written history. They have been treated much as slaves. Even after slavery was abolished black people were denied rights and treated like s***. Well, even after women started to gain more rights they have still been denied equal rights and are still being treated like s***.


You don’t know what I understand obviously.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_consiglieri
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _consiglieri »

stemelbow wrote:You don’t know what I understand obviously.


You're not helping us know what you understand, Stem.

We are all listening.

The floor is yours.


All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_stemelbow
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _stemelbow »

consiglieri wrote:I understand why the double negative (actually quadruple negative when you take into account the two "wrongs") may be difficult to decipher.

Heck, I may have confused myself.

But if you take into account the second "not" right after "slavery," I think you will find I wasn't attributing something reprehensible to you.

Can we get an English teacher referee in here?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


So you're not saying I'm not saying the women not having the priesthood is not more wrong then slavery not being wrong? Just kidding.

I read it time and again and all I can make of it is you seem to be saying I am somehow saying while women not having the priesthood is wrong, slavery is not more wrong. Or if that is not he case, are you suggesting slavery is no less wrong than women not having the priesthood? I fear you've confused us both.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_stemelbow
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _stemelbow »

Buffalo wrote:What I was trying to get at, Stem, was that you misunderstood what he was getting at. Admittedly it was murky/unclear the way he put it. Or maybe I misunderstood it too.

In any case, I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.


Making mountains out of molehills is the specialty of this place. I'm just trying to join in. (;
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Buffalo
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _Buffalo »

stemelbow wrote:
Buffalo wrote:What I was trying to get at, Stem, was that you misunderstood what he was getting at. Admittedly it was murky/unclear the way he put it. Or maybe I misunderstood it too.

In any case, I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.


Making mountains out of molehills is the specialty of this place. I'm just trying to join in. (;


Glad to see you taking part in a group experience :p
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_consiglieri
_Emeritus
Posts: 6186
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 10:47 pm

Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _consiglieri »

Now that we're all part of the same group experience, perhaps we can discuss the comment my friend made about being a woman sitting in a chair with a bunch of men's penises pointed at her head.

I imagine the one directly in front may have caused the most concern.













. . . and whether this is worse than slavery.



(Okay. I'm just kidding with that last part.)


All the Best!

--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
_MsJack
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _MsJack »

liz3564 wrote:This may require its own thread! Very interesting stuff! Do you remember which scholars stated that the writings regarding women were not actually from Paul, but inserted as Paul by someone else? Do we have any idea who would have done this?

I know a lot about this. I'll have to do a "No, Paul didn't hate women" thread sometime and talk about it, but to briefly sum it up:

Most scholars do not accept Paul as the author of 1 Timothy. That isn't my position, but if one is going strictly by majority consensus, 1 Timothy 2:12-15 is not genuinely from Paul. Ephesians and Colossians are also typically rejected as Pauline.

In recent years, a few scholars have proposed that 1 Corinthians 14:34-36 is a later interpolation. The manuscript evidence for this is on the weak side as proposed interpolations go; they base it on the fact that the verses are moved to another location in the chapter in a few MS, not that it's actually missing from any significant MS. But the theory is there. Gordon D. Fee is one such scholar.

That leaves 1 Corinthians 11 as containing the most offensive thing Paul says about women, which is difficult to understand and, even taken at its worst, incredibly tame by 1st century standards. Coupled with his intriguing mentions of a female apostle (Junia), a female deacon (Phoebe), and his high praise for female co-workers and co-laborers in the gospel and female house church leaders, his highly progressive take on sexuality in marriage (husbands and wives own each other instead of husbands owning wives), and Galatians 3:26-28, and Paul actually comes out looking pretty damned good.

Again, I personally don't reject Colossians, Ephesians, 1 Cor. 14:34-36, or even 1 Timothy as Pauline, but what I've just laid out is one way you could go.
"It seems to me that these women were the head (κεφάλαιον) of the church which was at Philippi." ~ John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians 13

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_Darth J
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Re: Something Troubling in Sunday School

Post by _Darth J »

stemelbow wrote:
Buffalo wrote:What I was trying to get at, Stem, was that you misunderstood what he was getting at. Admittedly it was murky/unclear the way he put it. Or maybe I misunderstood it too.

In any case, I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.


Making mountains out of molehills is the specialty of this place. I'm just trying to join in. (;


Stemelbow---

Are the doctrines, policies, history, and actual behavior of the LDS Church and/or its leaders relevant to the truth claims of the Church and the claims of its leaders to be prophets, seers, and revelators?

Why or why not?
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