Monson uses 9/11 to berate Americans

[_stemelbow]

Stemelbow---

A person's failure to find arguing from ignorance to be persuasive is not a cop-out.

Your own statement is that "we simply don't know what He has done for them or can do for them." Since you concede that you don't know, speculation that God sent the 9/11 victims to an eternity in Hell is on equal footing with speculation that God sent them all to a special happy place.

That's exactly what I just implied, DJ.

You are not addressing the problem of evil; you are compounding it. Not only are you admitting that you don't know why a benevolent and omnipotent God would allow something like 9/11 to happen in the first place, you also admit that you don't know what---if anything---God is going to do to make it up to the victims.

what do ya think, I presume to provide the ultimate solution to the problem that's plagued mankind for centuries? come on, DJ, get over myself.

Don't feel too badly that you have absolutely nothing insightful, meaningful, or interesting to say about it, though. As demonstrated by the banal platitudes of his op-ed piece, neither does your purported prophet.

Don't worry, DJ. I don't imagine I'd ever have anything useful to say in your estimation. I'm sure you'll always detest me and look down on me. I mean I hope more for you. I hope you drop the hostility, but I can't do much but say what I feel appropriate and hope for the best.

[_Buffalo]

That's exactly the logic with which fanatics recruit suicide bombers.

Oh how wonderful it is that folks here will go the route of, "you're like a suicide bomber, killing innocent babies and women with your beliefs". Doesn't the wonderful charitable conversation here just lift up and ease?

That's not what he said. But you have to admit, suicide bombers follow similar logic. Dying isn't so bad because of the rewards you get afterwards.

[_stemelbow]

No, the "negative speculatin'" doesn't fit my paradigm. I was just demonstrating how much your speculation was worth - nothing. All we know is what actually happened, which was senseless, horrible, painful death.

Fine by me. Then let's not assume we know that God has no plan to recompense.

[_Buffalo]

No, the "negative speculatin'" doesn't fit my paradigm. I was just demonstrating how much your speculation was worth - nothing. All we know is what actually happened, which was senseless, horrible, painful death.

Fine by me. Then let's not assume we know that God has no plan to recompense.

Right, and let's not assume that there is one to begin with. Let's just stick to the facts.

[_Darth J]

Stemelbow---

A person's failure to find arguing from ignorance to be persuasive is not a cop-out.

Your own statement is that "we simply don't know what He has done for them or can do for them." Since you concede that you don't know, speculation that God sent the 9/11 victims to an eternity in Hell is on equal footing with speculation that God sent them all to a special happy place.

That's exactly what I just implied, DJ.

Therefore, your point is.........

You are not addressing the problem of evil; you are compounding it. Not only are you admitting that you don't know why a benevolent and omnipotent God would allow something like 9/11 to happen in the first place, you also admit that you don't know what---if anything---God is going to do to make it up to the victims.

what do ya think, I presume to provide the ultimate solution to the problem that's plagued mankind for centuries? come on, DJ, get over myself.

Therefore, the point of this thread was.........

Don't feel too badly that you have absolutely nothing insightful, meaningful, or interesting to say about it, though. As demonstrated by the banal platitudes of his op-ed piece, neither does your purported prophet.

Don't worry, DJ. I don't imagine I'd ever have anything useful to say in your estimation. I'm sure you'll always detest me and look down on me. I mean I hope more for you. I hope you drop the hostility, but I can't do much but say what I feel appropriate and hope for the best.

Did you know that some people think that having a persecution complex is one of the defining traits of Mormon culture? Seriously, where do they come up with this stuff?

[_jon]

That's exactly the logic with which fanatics recruit suicide bombers.

Oh how wonderful it is that folks here will go the route of, "you're like a suicide bomber, killing innocent babies and women with your beliefs". Doesn't the wonderful charitable conversation here just lift up and ease?

Stem, let me know what other sentiments of outrage you want to express and I'll try to write posts that more accurately reflect what you want to think I'm saying.

[_stemelbow]

Therefore, your point is.........

Quite obvious. People who are saying God hsn't done anything for those who suffered because of 9/11 don't know what they are saying. They don't know.

Therefore, the point of this thread was.........

To discuss the topic. You'll note how I qualified it from the start that I didn't pretend that the LDS concept totally alleviates the problem.

Did you know that some people think that having a persecution complex is one of the defining traits of Mormon culture? Seriously, where do they come up with this stuff?

There are plenty of posters here quick to complain about being persecuted. of course, speculating that persecution complex is a defining trait of Mormon culture does not make it true. There are plenty of all cultures who feel persecuted. But that's all beside the point. I hope more for you.

[_Equality]

I thin Hoops was suggesting with the "innocent of what" comment that all human beings, including those that secular folks would commonly call "innocent" are actually guilty in God's eyes, being born sinful, wretched creatures in need of a cosmic ritual bloody sacrifice to atone for their sinfulness and bring them back into God's presence. It's an orthodox Christian position that all human beings are fallen and condemned to eternal death by operation of eternal law. Christians don't accept the notion that anyone is innocent. This is one way they can justify their God's apparent indifference to the slaughter of thousands--the folks who died weren't innocent at all from a Christian point of view because no one is innocent. It's just another of the sick and twisted doctrines taught by Christianity.

[_Darth J]

Therefore, your point is.........

Quite obvious. People who are saying God hsn't done anything for those who suffered because of 9/11 don't know what they are saying. They don't know.

Oh, your point is that nobody, including yourself, has an answer? That is indeed an important thing to ponder.

I would also like to propose that this post of mine that you are currently reading is in the English language, and that I posted it on the internet. I just wanted to contribute my insights to the discussion.

Therefore, the point of this thread was.........

To discuss the topic. You'll note how I qualified it from the start that I didn't pretend that the LDS concept totally alleviates the problem.

Except that you never established that there is any such thing as "the LDS concept," in the absence of any indicia that Mormonism has anything unique, useful, or insightful to say about the problem of evil.

Did you know that some people think that having a persecution complex is one of the defining traits of Mormon culture? Seriously, where do they come up with this stuff?

There are plenty of posters here quick to complain about being persecuted. of course, speculating that persecution complex is a defining trait of Mormon culture does not make it true. There are plenty of all cultures who feel persecuted. But that's all beside the point. I hope more for you.

So I must be a mean person because I don't find vacuous banter and banal platitudes to be profound and of deep metaphysical import?

Is that it?

[_Analytics]

Have you guys read the other essays on Faith and 9/11? The Post invited several religious and philosophical leaders to comment on what we learned that day and the ten years after.

Sam Harris did the most to berate:

Ten years have passed since a group of mostly educated and middle-class men decided to obliterate themselves, along with three thousand innocents, to gain entrance to an imaginary paradise. This problem was always deeper than the threat of terrorism—and our waging an interminable “war on terror” is no answer to it. Yes, we must destroy al Qaeda. But humanity has a larger project—to become sane. If September 11, 2001, should have taught us anything, it is that we must find honest consolation in our capacity for love, creativity, and understanding. This remains possible. It is also necessary. And the alternatives are bleak.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/on- ... _blog.html