More bad news for our scripture believing friends

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_jon
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _jon »

bcspace wrote:Upon the fundamental doctrines of the Church we are all agreed. Our mission is to bear the message of the restored gospel to the people of the world. Leave Geology, Biology, Archaeology and Anthropology, no one of which has to do with the salvation of the souls of mankind, to scientific research, while we magnify our calling in the realm of the Church.
We can see no advantage to be gained by a continuation of the discussion to which reference is here made, but on the contrary are certain that it would lead to confusion, division and misunderstanding if carried further. Upon one thing we should all be able to agree, namely, that Presidents Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder and Anthon H. Lund were right when they said: "Adam is the primal parent of our race."
First Presidency Minutes, Apr. 7, 1931


Bcspace,

The first paragraph of this statement seems to instruct the members to ignore the sciences.

The second paragraph seems to warn members that if they ignore the warning in the first paragraph they will find things That conflict with Mormon doctrines.

He does not say that the Church accepts Pre Adamites. He says Adam was our primal parent, and we should ignore everything else because it's nit important.
_bcspace
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _bcspace »

He does not say that the Church accepts Pre Adamites. He says Adam was our primal parent, and we should ignore everything else because it's nit important.


Yet you seem to have missed the key paragraph.....

The statement made by Elder Smith that the existence of pre-Adamites is not a doctrine of the Church is true. It is just as true that the statement: "There were not pre-Adamites upon the earth", is not a doctrine of the Church. Neither side of the controversy has been accepted as a doctrine at all.


So what have have here is the notion of Adam being the "primal parent of our race" being accepted as not in conflict with the notion of preAdamites. Hence no conflict with science on this issue (and most other, if not all, issues as well).
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_jon
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _jon »

Bcspace, I see how you are using the statement but I don't agree with you. As I see it he is saying the Church takes no position on it either way at the current time. That isn't allowing for Pre adamites, that's copping out of giving a clear answer.
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_beefcalf
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _beefcalf »

bcspace wrote:Hence no conflict with science on this issue (and most other, if not all, issues as well).


bcspace,

I do not believe you can properly reconcile any belief in Adam as the father of all humans on Earth with a correct understanding of how human evolution actually happened. If you ask any evolutionary biologist, I am confident that none of them would agree that the human species was ever whittled down to even as few as ten-thousand breeding pairs, much less one breeding pair, as envisioned in Genesis.

In other words, the humans which presently inhabit the earth cannot have all descended from a single human ancestor, or a single male-female pair.

If all humanity does not descend from one woman and one man, there is no place along the continuum for you to slap the label 'first man' and 'first woman'. If there is no Adam, there is no fall, etc. etc. etc.

Nonetheless, I am nearly quivering in anticipation to read the uber-pretzel-rific contortions your beliefs (mingled with scripture) will adopt in order to unpeel this banana...
eschew obfuscation

"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
I believe every one of them and find none to be in conflict with science.


Actually, your beliefs are in direct contradiction to scripture AND science. Good going.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
So what have have here is the notion of Adam being the "primal parent of our race" being accepted as not in conflict with the notion of preAdamites. Hence no conflict with science on this issue (and most other, if not all, issues as well).


It's scientifically impossible for some guy named Adam to have been the "primal parent of our race" if there were indeed "pre-Adamites"
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_DrW
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _DrW »

bcspace wrote:Hence no conflict with science on this issue (and most other, if not all, issues as well).

beefcalf wrote:bcspace,

I do not believe you can properly reconcile any belief in Adam as the father of all humans on Earth with a correct understanding of how human evolution actually happened. If you ask any evolutionary biologist, I am confident that none of them would agree that the human species was ever whittled down to even as few as ten-thousand breeding pairs, much less one breeding pair, as envisioned in Genesis.

In other words, the humans which presently inhabit the earth cannot have all descended from a single human ancestor, or a single male-female pair.

If all humanity does not descend from one woman and one man, there is no place along the continuum for you to slap the label 'first man' and 'first woman'. If there is no Adam, there is no fall, etc. etc. etc.

There is strong evidence that all living humans today have mitochondrial DNA from a single female common ancestor, sometimes known as the Mitochondrial Eve. It is estimated that the Mitochondrial Eve lived some 200,000 years ago in East Africa. The patrilinial most recent common male ancestor (Y-Chromosomal Adam) lived some 50,000 to 80,000 years later than the Mitochondrial Eve.

A scientist named Mark Stoneking and his then wife, Dr. Geraldine Lee, did seminal work in population genetics and statistics in this area. A short interview with Dr. Stoneking that explains the concept very clearly can be seen here:

http://www.dnalc.org/view/15165-Mitochondrial-Eve-Mark-Stoneking.html.

Dr. Lee and I have worked together and published as co-authors since, and have spent many hours on airplanes and in the field discussing these issues.

It might take a bit of time to get one's head around the whole concept. (I know it did for me.) Drawing it out on a piece of paper, or having a look at the graphic at the URL below, can help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MatrilinealAncestor.PNG (MRCA = most recent common ancestor.)

Also keep in mind that female mitichondrial DNA is passed along, without recombination, to the daugter.

So, population genetics and statistics show that there is but one female common ancestor (with an unbroken matriarchal DNA line) to everyone living today. This female existed at the same time as thousands of other females. However, she was the only one whose pure lineage has survived. (That is, her contemporaries have no surviving offspring, or at least no surviving female offspring.)

Again, Dr. Stoneking gives a good explanation in the video.

Thus, in a sense, Eve (an anatomically modern human female) and Adam (an anatomically modern male), both of whom are related to all humans today, did exist at one time (but tens of thousands of years apart).

I am not defending BCSPace's position here. BCSpace just makes this stuff up as he goes along without regard for facts, scientific or otherwise.

Just mentioning a few fine points.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_bcspace
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _bcspace »

Bcspace, I see how you are using the statement but I don't agree with you. As I see it he is saying the Church takes no position on it either way at the current time.


Sure.

That isn't allowing for Pre adamites, that's copping out of giving a clear answer.


If there is no doctrine on it, then it's possible.

I do not believe you can properly reconcile any belief in Adam as the father of all humans on Earth with a correct understanding of how human evolution actually happened.


Sure I can. Two possibilities (probably more). Adam was the first homo sapiens whose spirit was a literal spirit child of God. Or Adam and Eve were first to receive knowledge of God. The first is more literal, the second is more figurative.

It's scientifically impossible for some guy named Adam to have been the "primal parent of our race" if there were indeed "pre-Adamites"


I've just proven you wrong....again.

Actually, your beliefs are in direct contradiction to scripture AND science.


How so? I am in perfect harmony with LDS doctrine and science does not and cannot address the "spiritual" side (existence of God and so forth).
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Tarski
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Tarski »

bcspace wrote:
Bcspace, I see how you are using the statement but I don't agree with you. As I see it he is saying the Church takes no position on it either way at the current time.


Sure.

That isn't allowing for Pre adamites, that's copping out of giving a clear answer.


If there is no doctrine on it, then it's possible.

I do not believe you can properly reconcile any belief in Adam as the father of all humans on Earth with a correct understanding of how human evolution actually happened.


Sure I can. Two possibilities (probably more). Adam was the first homo sapiens whose spirit was a literal spirit child of God. Or Adam and Eve were first to receive knowledge of God. The first is more literal, the second is more figurative.

It's scientifically impossible for some guy named Adam to have been the "primal parent of our race" if there were indeed "pre-Adamites"


I've just proven you wrong....again.

Actually, your beliefs are in direct contradiction to scripture AND science.


How so? I am in perfect harmony with LDS doctrine and science does not and cannot address the "spiritual" side (existence of God and so forth).



ah the miracle of strategic redefinition of common terms. With this anything is possible oh Lord.
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_bcspace
_Emeritus
Posts: 18534
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:48 pm

Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _bcspace »

ah the miracle of strategic redefinition of common terms.


Such as?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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