In Which Res Ipsa Abandons the Illusion of Control Over What People Post In a Thread f/k/a Thinking About ...

[Res Ipsa]

Moksha, going back to your original list comment, have you by chance read the book or seen the movie or TV Series "Please Don't Eat the Daisies?"

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

ETA: I’d really like to avoid detailing the discussion by focusing on each other’s motives. Could we do that too, please?

Perhaps if we frame the discussion from a racial perspective, our white Liberal feminist allies might have a moment of reflection? Since apparently racism is the only thing that seems to carry any sort of legitimacy, unlike a distinguished professor or two pointing out sexism and sexist treatment which generates defensiveness in men. Let's just tweak the OP a bit - note I'm going to use the quote feature as an effect and not as a literal quotation mechanism:

"Is your skull malformed or something?" a racist remark made HERE."

The affected poster, a black professor who's endured a lifetime of subtle and not-so-subtle racist digs sent his way by colleagues, posts a story about another black professor who's white wife made a subtle racist remark that caused him to blow his stack:

By Victor Brown

(retired from the faculty of Cornell, where he taught US History)

I yelled at my wife last night. Not pick-up-your-socks yell. Not how-could-you-ignore-that-red-light yell.

This was real yelling. This was 30 minutes of from-the-gut yelling. Triggered by a small, thoughtless, dismissive, annoyed, patronizing comment. Really small. A micro-wave that triggered a hurricane. I blew. Hard and fast. And it terrified me. I’m still terrified by what I felt and what I said. I am almost 70 years old. I am a grandfather. Yet in that roiling moment, screaming at my wife as if she represented every clueless racist on the planet, I announced that I hate all white people and wish all white people were dead. If one of my grandchildren yelled something that ridiculous, I’d have been mortified.

My white wife of 50 years it dead seriously. She did not defend her remark, she did not defend white people. She sat, hunched and hurt, and she listened.

For a moment, it occurred to me to be grateful that I’m married to a white woman who will listen to a black man. The winds calmed ever so slightly in that moment. And then the storm surge welled up in me as I realized the pathetic impotence of white women’s plan to rebuild the wreckage by listening to black people. As my rage rushed through the streets of my mind, toppling every memory of every good thing my wife has ever done (and there are scores of memories), I said the meanest thing I’ve ever said to her:

Don’t you dare sit there and sympathetically promise to change. Don’t say you will stop yourself before you blurt out some impatient, annoyed, controlling remark. No, I said, you can’t change. You are unable to change. You don’t have the skills and you won’t do it. You, I said, are one of the good white folks. You respect black people, you believe in black people, you like black folks, you don’t in any way abuse black folks. You have applauded and funded black movements for a half-century. You are one of the good white folks. And you cannot change. You can listen all you want, but that will not create one iota of change....

In the decades of black movements that have formed and washed away, only recently good white people have organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their children, to address the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for white culture. And yet it still persists as pervasive and deep seated in every facet of their culture, their beings. Don’t listen to me. Listen to each other. See how they talk to one another in the safety of their racial company. Earn your power for once.

The racial war that has broken out in this country is flooding all our houses. It’s rising on the torrent of memories that every black person has. Those memories have come loose from the attic and the basement where we’ve stashed them. They are floating all around us and there is no place left to store them out of sight. Not just memories of literal racial abuse.

Memories of being dismissed, disdained, distrusted. Memories of having to endure put-downs at the office, passing insults in the parking lot, anonymous insults on the Internet. And, for some reason, the most chilling reality of all, the one any black person can recognized: the mocking.

The laughter of white people who are bonding with each other by mocking us. The mocking is the sharpest memory of every assault we endure, every insult, it always comes back to mocking and laughter.

No white person right now understands the flood that is rushing through black folk’s brains, and only white people in the deepest denial have evacuated their minds before the flood could reach them.

When good white people give heartfelt, sincere speeches about how we must listen to black people, I don’t know whether to coo or laugh or cry or yell. Think about “listen to black people” as a program for change. It says to black men and women:

You will continue to suffer these abuses, white people will continue to do disgusting things to you, the storms will keep coming, the tide will continue to rise, but now, we will listen and help you rebuild.

Pay attention people: If we do not white children to walk humbly and care deeply, if we do not demand that white folks do more than just listen, we will all drown in the flood. And there is no MLK to save us.

Now. Given the hypothetical phrenological insult levied toward a hypothetical black professor who posts here, and given the hypothetical article the black professor by another black professor explaining, very acutely, why racial insults, however diminutive they may be, generates such a visceral reaction, how would you react to this hypothetical exchange?

Analysis Man (who has always been well-regarded) drops this gem for some reason, "I can now see why skull shapes are an indicator of intelligence. Is that why you can't think today?"

Dr. Leshawn, a board participant who is a black professor who teaches at an Ivy League school takes umbrage with the statement, and starts a thread to talk about the racist remark so as not to derail another thread.

They have a back and forth, Analysis Man realizes his statement was wildly inappropriate and hurtful, and Dr. Leshawn initially forgives. All is well, learning happened, and racial progress is achieved.

Then Hurpy Herpeson pops in with:

"Can we get a list of insults not to use so we don't offend blacks?"

Dr. Leshawn responds, "THAT'S what you got out of this exchange? Why don't you ask your mommy for the list."

Then Hurpy Herpeson doubles down with:

"Boy! We should really be watching out for all those arrows when we're cruising the Congo River! Even King Philippe of Belgium needs to catch a break!"

When Dr. Asshole pops in, and taking to heart the OP, and wrecks Hurpy Herpeson's crap, instead of actually damned reading the OP in order to understand Dr. Leshawn's reality and making a change, Hurpy Herpeson triples down and begins to moan about unfair he's been treated by all them black folks and that Dr. Asshole is just white knighting and setting race relations back because *reasons*.

Even now, I genuinely don't believe Hurpy Herpeson has the intestinal fortitude to read the OP, my analogous post above, be reflective of what he's done not only now, but throughout his life and how his privilege is what's holding him back to actually damned acknowledge what's he done was to be dismissive of a very real reality he's never experienced, but has promulgated, demonstrably so. He needs to man the “F” up, apologize for his misstep, and move on.

- Doc

[Lem]

I’m afraid that the comments to Moksha are doing exactly the opposite of what I’ve been proposing.

As are Moksha's comments themselves.

Doc, you seem to have objections to Moksha’s posting style that go far beyond feminism. As the starter of the thread, given the absence of moderators, I’d like to ask you to carve out your opinions about Moksha’s humor and use of obscure references and address them in a different thread.

I know you asked Doc to address unrelated issues in another thread, I propose you ask Moksha to do the same with his issues unrelated to this thread.

In his attempt to defend himself he referred to the sexism under discussion as a "societal slip," and implied that because in his opinion it was unintentional it shouldn't hurt, unlike the comments that he feels were meant to hurt him. His original comment mocking Some Schmo's very kind apology to me so he could reference his hurt was very inappropriate.

He continues to minimize the sexism in his attempt to emphasize what he considers his wounds. in my opinion, That just increases the damage done by the sexism.

Please note, I am not ascribing motives, I am just making my case for also asking him to take his other issues elsewhere.

[Lem]

Perhaps if we frame the discussion from a racial perspective, our white Liberal feminist allies might have a moment of reflection? Since apparently racism is the only thing that seems to carry any sort of legitimacy, unlike a distinguished professor or two pointing out sexism and sexist treatment which generates defensiveness in men. Let's just tweak the OP a bit - note I'm going to use the quote feature as an effect and not as a literal quotation mechanism:

<SNIPPED>

- Doc

Wow. Very powerful post, Doc. Thanks for doing that.

[Chap]

It's because a guy is looking for a fight. Yep, that's his testosterone talking. No doubt about it.

That's you talking gender stereotypes, not me.

I have quite a lot of testosterone. But I use it for fun with my partner (like most men do, if they have the chance), not for picking fights.

[Some Schmo]

Wow. Very powerful post, Doc. Thanks for doing that.

What's really interesting (to me) is that Doc put it in that context (not surprised, but delighted). Having thought quite deeply about this topic over the last week (obsessing over it, one might say), one of the things I did to help contextualize that thread was exactly what Doc did here: replaced sexism with racism. It is a powerful tool.

You did a good job rewriting that article, Doc. I highly recommend people read that.

[Some Schmo]

Lem, I've got to be honest with you and tell I hate that we fought. I've been insensitive to your feelings in my communications, and frankly an asshole, so...

I want to tell you that I'm sorry for my part in it. I actually intended to help and screwed it up.

Thank you, Some Schmo. I've always considered you a friend here, and I was having a really hard time as well. I really didn't expect the reactions I got, and I didn't react that well either. I apologize as well for my part that didn't help.

(Also, I think your appendix metaphor is genius! Well done. )

Thank you for being so gracious.

[Res Ipsa]

I’m afraid that the comments to Moksha are doing exactly the opposite of what I’ve been proposing.

As are Moksha's comments themselves.

Doc, you seem to have objections to Moksha’s posting style that go far beyond feminism. As the starter of the thread, given the absence of moderators, I’d like to ask you to carve out your opinions about Moksha’s humor and use of obscure references and address them in a different thread.

I know you asked Doc to address unrelated issues in another thread, I propose you ask Moksha to do the same with his issues unrelated to this thread.

In his attempt to defend himself he referred to the sexism under discussion as a "societal slip," and implied that because in his opinion it was unintentional it shouldn't hurt, unlike the comments that he feels were meant to hurt him. His original comment mocking Some Schmo's very kind apology to me so he could reference his hurt was very inappropriate.

He continues to minimize the sexism in his attempt to emphasize what he considers his wounds. in my opinion, That just increases the damage done by the sexism.

Please note, I am not ascribing motives, I am just making my case for also asking him to take his other issues elsewhere.

Hi Lem,

I set this thread up so that I could discuss my approach to feminism with Schmo. I did so for a couple of reasons. I did not want to take over the discussion you started but I wanted to do what the article you posted and, as a man, take up the laboring oar of talking to another man about sexist language and the harm it causes. I’m in total agreement with feminist women who says it should not be their burden to educate individual men about issues they’ve been talking about for decades. So, I created this space (thread).

So, I think a discussion with Moksha on the same issues is on-topic for the thread. But to do that effectively, I think I need to start by viewing the original comment as a mistake rather than a moral defect. And a big part of that requires Putting the issues of his humor and use of obscure references aside.

I also think comments he has made in the context of defending himself are on-topic for this thread. But I’d like to start with the original comment and then go on from there.

I want to be clear that I am in no way suggesting that this be a men only conversation. And I’m certainly not going to tone or content police women in a conversation about feminism.

But I do want to be clear about what am doing and why. Thus, the extended explanation.

[Lem]

[So, I think a discussion with Moksha on the same issues is on-topic for the thread. But to do that effectively, I think I need to start by viewing the original comment as a mistake rather than a moral defect.

No argument there.

And a big part of that requires Putting the issues of his humor and use of obscure references aside.

Agreed. My point was that since every post Moksha has made in this thread has been about how his humor was responded to, it seemed that you should request that both he and Doc be asked to put that aside, not just Doc, but if this is your perspective:

I also think comments he has made in the context of defending himself are on-topic for this thread. But I’d like to start with the original comment and then go on from there.

In that context, I agree. I already made my comments above re: his defense of himself in contrast to the sexism under discussion, but I'm happy to let them sit until your discussion reaches that point.

[Res Ipsa]

Thanks, Lem. I appreciate the understanding and the feedback.