More bad news for our scripture believing friends

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_Nightlion
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Nightlion »

DrW wrote:
Thus, in a sense, Eve (an anatomically modern human female) and Adam (an anatomically modern male), both of whom are related to all humans today, did exist at one time (but tens of thousands of years apart).

I am not defending BCSPace's position here. BCSpace just makes this stuff up as he goes along without regard for facts, scientific or otherwise.

Just mentioning a few fine points.

Bull crap. Why is science so afraid to announce that they have proven Adam and Eve? Thousands of years apart. Your man does not really believe this. It is a bald face lie. He fears, therefore he lies.

Just my gut read.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_bcspace
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _bcspace »

BCSpace just makes this stuff up as he goes along without regard for facts, scientific or otherwise.


Such as?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_jon
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _jon »

It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father.
(First Presidency Statement November 1909)


bcspace, if the above is true then you believe that every form of human species on the planet today started out life from Adam and Eve who were placed in the Garden of Eden (c4,000 BC) 6,000 years ago.

So the human race is only 6,000 years old.

Not only that, you also believe that, with the exception of Noah and his few family members (three sons), the entire human race was wiped out (c2,300 - 2,400 BC) 4,000 years ago.

So, actually the current diversity of human life has only been formed over the last 4,000 years and actually started life from Noah and his wife and his three sons.

Have I accurately reflected the current stated position and teaching of the Church?
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_DrW
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _DrW »

Nightlion wrote:
DrW wrote:
Thus, in a sense, Eve (an anatomically modern human female) and Adam (an anatomically modern male), both of whom are related to all humans today, did exist at one time (but tens of thousands of years apart).

I am not defending BCSPace's position here. BCSpace just makes this stuff up as he goes along without regard for facts, scientific or otherwise.

Just mentioning a few fine points.

Bull crap. Why is science so afraid to announce that they have proven Adam and Eve? Thousands of years apart. Your man does not really believe this. It is a bald face lie. He fears, therefore he lies.

Just my gut read.

Your gut needs glasses, my friend.

Did you not understand that there were anatomically modern humans living for tens of thousands of years before Mitochondrial Eve?

Did you even bother to look at the graphic linked to my post that depicts clearly what it means to be a most recent common ancestor?

Did you not understand that Mitochondrial Eve, in reality, lived 200,000 years ago, not the biblical 6,000 or the D&C 77 7,000 years ago?

Did you not understand that Mitochondrial Eve had thousands upon thousands of contemporaries, who were simply not fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to have female offspring alive today?

Regardless of what Mormon apologists, apostles and prophets claim, no matter how much tortured, twisted logic, fantasy, pseudoscience and faith you wish to apply, these scientific findings simply cannot be reconciled with Mormon Doctrine as set forth in LDS scripture - BCSpace or no BCSpace.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Nightlion
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Nightlion »

DrW wrote:
Nightlion wrote:Bull crap. Why is science so afraid to announce that they have proven Adam and Eve? Thousands of years apart. Your man does not really believe this. It is a bald face lie. He fears, therefore he lies.

Just my gut read.

Your gut needs glasses, my friend.
.


Life never originated upon this planet. Anyone who believes in God and fails to understand that God has created worlds without number with inhabitants thereof is unschooled in the literature.

Mr Gut says science interprets data according to what they BELIEVE has to be considered and included in their findings. They are simply wrong in stretching time and adding space between markers. I have no more interest in the minutia of their fairy tales than to go see The Book of Mormon musical.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_DrW
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _DrW »

bcspace wrote:
BCSpace just makes this stuff up as he goes along without regard for facts, scientific or otherwise.


Such as?

Perhaps we can start with your claim (which you based on string theory), that Kolob actually exists in an alternate universe and that LDS Temples are an analog for a gateway to that universe.

Then we can move on to your insistence that science and LDS religion can be reconciled when it comes to the biblical Adam and Eve and the LDS doctrine concerning "pre-Adamites", given the science I have described above.

These are just two examples from the last two weeks or so.

Now, I understand that, in your mind, there are no conflicts between science and the LDS religion. However, as I have said before, Mormons who believe that their religion does not conflict with science need to read more about science, more about their religion, or both.

Here is a suggestion for you. Simply try to imagine how your explanations of no conflict, and your resulting versions of the "science" involved, would be accepted in the science classrooms and laboratories of secular colleges and universities.

For example, think about delivering a lecture entitled, "String Theory Based Mechanisms for LDS Temples as Analogs for Inter-Universal Gateways" to a graduate class in theoretical physics.

Surely you get the point.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Chap
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Chap »

Nightlion wrote:Life never originated upon this planet. Anyone who believes in God and fails to understand that God has created worlds without number with inhabitants thereof is unschooled in the literature.


Many people who do not believe in God can see no reason why life should not have appeared in other places in this vast universe as well as on Earth (though of course as yet we do not know on scientific grounds that it has appeared). So the second statement, appropriately rephrased, is not a great problem for secularists.

But why does that imply that life did not originate on this planet independently? In theological terms, what reason is there to think that if God created life he could only do it once?


Nightlion wrote:Mr Gut says science interprets data according to what they BELIEVE has to be considered and included in their findings. They are simply wrong in stretching time and adding space between markers. I have no more interest in the minutia of their fairy tales than to go see The Book of Mormon musical.


Hey! Those fairy tales are pretty good when it comes to the solid-state physics that make your computer work, the chemistry that makes antibiotics to stop you dying of infections, the geology that helps find new sources of oil and gas without having to resort to drilling a lot of holes at random, or the genetics that make it possible to tell whose descendant you really are.

But the minute they conflict with your religion, you treat them like a belief in Santa or the Easter Bunny. How can you be so hard-hearted?
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Buffalo
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:Sure I can. Two possibilities (probably more). Adam was the first homo sapiens whose spirit was a literal spirit child of God. Or Adam and Eve were first to receive knowledge of God. The first is more literal, the second is more figurative.

It's scientifically impossible for some guy named Adam to have been the "primal parent of our race" if there were indeed "pre-Adamites"


I've just proven you wrong....again.


You sure are impressed with yourself - as usual.

However, evolutionarily speaking, there is no such thing as a single person or two persons as the "first" of any species. Your figurative example bears no relationship to the scriptural accounts, and again is unscientific.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_bcspace
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _bcspace »

It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father.
(First Presidency Statement November 1909)

bcspace, if the above is true then you believe that every form of human species on the planet today started out life from Adam and Eve who were placed in the Garden of Eden (c4,000 BC) 6,000 years ago.


Well, when you're able to point out how or where this conflicts with evolution, let me know. Also, this is prior to the 1931 statement which accepts the possibility of preAdamites.

So the human race is only 6,000 years old.


The doctrine does not preclude homo sapiens having existed for hundreds of thousands of years as per science. It simply says Adam is the first man and the context is the gospel sense. The doctrine and scripture also allows for an undefined, in age and state, creative period prior to Adam being placed in the garden.

Not only that, you also believe that, with the exception of Noah and his few family members (three sons), the entire human race was wiped out (c2,300 - 2,400 BC) 4,000 years ago.


I do not and have already stated this. But the local Flood is not the creation.

So, actually the current diversity of human life has only been formed over the last 4,000 years and actually started life from Noah and his wife and his three sons.

Have I accurately reflected the current stated position and teaching of the Church?


Generally not. But you have accurately reflected the Skousen-Fielding-McConkite view.

Regardless of what Mormon apologists, apostles and prophets claim, no matter how much tortured, twisted logic, fantasy, pseudoscience and faith you wish to apply, these scientific findings simply cannot be reconciled with Mormon Doctrine as set forth in LDS scripture - BCSpace or no BCSpace.


Am not claiming my hypothesis to be a theory, but you have to admit the favorability of scripture and doctrine towards it.

Perhaps we can start with your claim (which you based on string theory), that Kolob actually exists in an alternate universe and that LDS Temples are an analog for a gateway to that universe.


Not my claim, just an idea. Not based on String Theory though such does allow for multiple uinivereses. Also, nothing to do with creation. But you did fail to note how it might be inconflict with science or doctrine.

Then we can move on to your insistence that science and LDS religion can be reconciled when it comes to the biblical Adam and Eve and the LDS doctrine concerning "pre-Adamites", given the science I have described above.


And I've shown how they fit well together.

These are just two examples from the last two weeks or so.


You've provided no examples so far.

Now, I understand that, in your mind, there are no conflicts between science and the LDS religion. However, as I have said before, Mormons who believe that their religion does not conflict with science need to read more about science, more about their religion, or both.


One of the reasons why you;ve provided no examples is because you've not even attempted to show how or why there is a conflict. You simply stated there is a conflict.

Here is a suggestion for you. Simply try to imagine how your explanations of no conflict, and your resulting versions of the "science" involved, would be accepted in the science classrooms and laboratories of secular colleges and universities.


Science does not address the existence of God or His works and none of my claims have denied science.

You sure are impressed with yourself - as usual.


You make it easy by not stating how or why there is a conflict.

However, evolutionarily speaking, there is no such thing as a single person or two persons as the "first" of any species.


Not my hypothesis. How would science detect say a different type of spirit or when the knowledge of God was revealed?
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Buffalo
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Re: More bad news for our scripture believing friends

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:
However, evolutionarily speaking, there is no such thing as a single person or two persons as the "first" of any species.


Not my hypothesis. How would science detect say a different type of spirit or when the knowledge of God was revealed?


Scientifically speaking, there is no such thing as either "spirit" or God. And neither of those scenarios are consistent with scripture.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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