More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

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_lostindc
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _lostindc »

Buffalo,

I will first deal with Ketamine. Let’s take it one piece at a time.

The International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS) provides a quick criticism of the Ketamine model by stating:
“Ketamine and psilocybin are two drugs that have reportedly triggered mystical experiences that appear to be different than hallucinations and have similar elements to NDEs. Karl Jansen, who has written more than anyone else on NDE-like ketamine experiences, says the following.
“After 12 years of studying ketamine, I now believe that there most definitely is a soul that is independent of experience. It exists when we begin, and may persist when we end. Ketamine is a door to a place we cannot normally get to; it is definitely not evidence that such a place does not exist.” Jansen, Karl. (1997). Response to Commentaries on “The Ketamine Model of the Near-Death Experience.” Journal of Near-Death Studies. 16, 79-95.
NDEs are quantified by using Greyson's NDE Scale and Ring’s Weighted Core Experience Index. No such NDE measures are known to have been taken by the subjects involved in drug-related experiments in order to make a valid comparison. Scientists in the new field of neurotheology are researching psilocybin and its mystic state-inducing capabilities for its possible therapeutic effectiveness.”

The above analysis is being very friendly to the Ketamine model. There are additional criticisms that can be provided.

The ketamine model/hypothesis is an argument of a relationship between human biology and the transcendental experience. One can easily come to the conclusion that the mind is an entryway between the physical and spiritual worlds and therefore ketamine is should not be used as a tool to demystify the nde.
Also, during cardiac arrest there is a loss of all functions of the brain and therefore whether on ketamine or not the person is unconscious yet they feel fully conscious and even occasionally state they felt more real and alive than when in our current realm.
Also, it is not very clear whether ketamine experiences actually replicate ndes. In fact, most nders suggest this is not the case at all. NDErs mostly report positive feelings from the experience whereas ketamine experiences more often report differently. I cannot recall one person who had a non-drug affiliated genuine greyson scale nde and also experienced drug use, such as LSD, Ketamine, etc that say they are similar in anyway, just researchers.
In addition, Ketamine does not explain away the accuracies of out-of-body perceptions in people who lacked any brain activity whatsoever.

There is one additional analysis accessible on the web (I am doing my best to find obtainable sources instead of sources requiring subscriptions, e.g. journal articles). Dr. Fenwick discusses similarities and provides an example:
One of the major models we have of the NDE at the moment is the ketamine model. During cerebral anoxia, when the heart stops and there is no oxygen supply to the brain, there is widespread release of a chemical called glutamate, an NMDA agonist which leads to high nerve cell stimulation rates and chaotic firing in the brain. Ketamine is an anesthetic drug that acts like glutamate and is sometimes used as a street drug because of its pleasant subjective effects. Experimentally, ketamine leads to some NDE phenomena. Evgeny Krupitzky and Alexander Grinenko (1997) used ketamine in psychotherapy with alcoholics and found that it resulted in the same sorts of changes that people have with NDEs. Their patients became more social, more creative; more concerned with self-perfection and with achievement in life; more spiritually content; more interested in family, education, and social values; and more individually independent – many of the changes that NDErs have. Does that mean that the experiences are the same? Is it the NMDA stimulation that produces the NDE?
Well, look at this example of a ketamine experience, taken from Karl Jansen’s 2001 book, Ketamine:
... I found myself as a bodiless point of awareness and energy floating in the midst of a vast vaulted chamber. There was a sense of presence all around, as though I was surrounded by millions of others, although no one else could be seen. In the center of the chamber was a huge, pulsing, krishna-blue mass of seething energy that was shaped in a geometric, mandalic form ... . Then suddenly, I was back in my body, lying on my bed. ‘‘Wow,’’ I thought, ‘‘it’s over. How abrupt!’’ I tried to sit up. Suddenly, my body was gone again and the room dissolved into blackness of the void, my reality being quickly pulled out from underneath my feet, like a hyperspatial magician’s tablecloth trick. (p. 243)
NDErs, is that like your experience? No, it is not. There are some similar features, but there are other features that are very different.
So although the ketamine model is the best scientific candidate so far to account for the NDE in cardiac arrest, it cannot explain every feature of NDEs. And I am not sure that even if we say that the NDE is a ketamine-like experience, we can, in fact, completely understand the whole of the NDE during cardiac arrest. Because we are left with the problem of exactly when does the NDE occur? And the only way you can get an answer to this is through out-of-body experiences (http://iands.org/research/important-res ... ml?start=3 ).

Please note Dr. Gregory Stone provides a full critique of Susan Blackmore’s Dying to Live and this is published on IANDS for additionally criticisms.
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_lostindc
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _lostindc »

CaliforniaKid wrote:
lostindc wrote:I fully expect that we will find a posivitist argument from your side of the isle and I will slowly dissect.

Good Lord. Somebody shoot me in the head, please. Is this really the default apologetic argument for every debate, now? Before proceeding with this strategy, please at least read this.


Hey there CAKid, hope life is treating you well. You mind staying out of this thread and perhaps starting another thread on this subject? I realize I started the thread and you are likely very proud of the blog post/wiki-like text on posivitism since you went out of your way to share and link but I am all but impressed. Anyways, Buffalo and I are sharing thoughts.
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_Buffalo
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _Buffalo »

lostindc wrote:Buffalo,

I will first deal with Ketamine. Let’s take it one piece at a time.

The International Association for Near-Death Studies (IANDS) provides a quick criticism of the Ketamine model by stating:

“Ketamine and psilocybin are two drugs that have reportedly triggered mystical experiences that appear to be different than hallucinations and have similar elements to NDEs. Karl Jansen, who has written more than anyone else on NDE-like ketamine experiences, says the following.
“After 12 years of studying ketamine, I now believe that there most definitely is a soul that is independent of experience. It exists when we begin, and may persist when we end. Ketamine is a door to a place we cannot normally get to; it is definitely not evidence that such a place does not exist.” Jansen, Karl. (1997). Response to Commentaries on “The Ketamine Model of the Near-Death Experience.” Journal of Near-Death Studies. 16, 79-95.
NDEs are quantified by using Greyson's NDE Scale and Ring’s Weighted Core Experience Index. No such NDE measures are known to have been taken by the subjects involved in drug-related experiments in order to make a valid comparison. Scientists in the new field of neurotheology are researching psilocybin and its mystic state-inducing capabilities for its possible therapeutic effectiveness.”

The above analysis is being very friendly to the Ketamine model. There are additional criticisms that can be provided.

The ketamine model/hypothesis is an argument of a relationship between human biology and the transcendental experience. One can easily come to the conclusion that the mind is an entryway between the physical and spiritual worlds and therefore ketamine is should not be used as a tool to demystify the nde.
Also, during cardiac arrest there is a loss of all functions of the brain and therefore whether on ketamine or not the person is unconscious yet they feel fully conscious and even occasionally state they felt more real and alive than when in our current realm.
Also, it is not very clear whether ketamine experiences actually replicate ndes. In fact, most nders suggest this is not the case at all. NDErs mostly report positive feelings from the experience whereas ketamine experiences more often report differently. I cannot recall one person who had a non-drug affiliated genuine greyson scale nde and also experienced drug use, such as LSD, Ketamine, etc that say they are similar in anyway, just researchers.
In addition, Ketamine does not explain away the accuracies of out-of-body perceptions in people who lacked any brain activity whatsoever.

There is one additional analysis accessible on the web (I am doing my best to find obtainable sources instead of sources requiring subscriptions, e.g. journal articles). Dr. Fenwick discusses similarities and provides an example:
One of the major models we have of the NDE at the moment is the ketamine model. During cerebral anoxia, when the heart stops and there is no oxygen supply to the brain, there is widespread release of a chemical called glutamate, an NMDA agonist which leads to high nerve cell stimulation rates and chaotic firing in the brain. Ketamine is an anesthetic drug that acts like glutamate and is sometimes used as a street drug because of its pleasant subjective effects. Experimentally, ketamine leads to some NDE phenomena. Evgeny Krupitzky and Alexander Grinenko (1997) used ketamine in psychotherapy with alcoholics and found that it resulted in the same sorts of changes that people have with NDEs. Their patients became more social, more creative; more concerned with self-perfection and with achievement in life; more spiritually content; more interested in family, education, and social values; and more individually independent – many of the changes that NDErs have. Does that mean that the experiences are the same? Is it the NMDA stimulation that produces the NDE?
Well, look at this example of a ketamine experience, taken from Karl Jansen’s 2001 book, Ketamine:
... I found myself as a bodiless point of awareness and energy floating in the midst of a vast vaulted chamber. There was a sense of presence all around, as though I was surrounded by millions of others, although no one else could be seen. In the center of the chamber was a huge, pulsing, krishna-blue mass of seething energy that was shaped in a geometric, mandalic form ... . Then suddenly, I was back in my body, lying on my bed. ‘‘Wow,’’ I thought, ‘‘it’s over. How abrupt!’’ I tried to sit up. Suddenly, my body was gone again and the room dissolved into blackness of the void, my reality being quickly pulled out from underneath my feet, like a hyperspatial magician’s tablecloth trick. (p. 243)
NDErs, is that like your experience? No, it is not. There are some similar features, but there are other features that are very different.
So although the ketamine model is the best scientific candidate so far to account for the NDE in cardiac arrest, it cannot explain every feature of NDEs. And I am not sure that even if we say that the NDE is a ketamine-like experience, we can, in fact, completely understand the whole of the NDE during cardiac arrest. Because we are left with the problem of exactly when does the NDE occur? And the only way you can get an answer to this is through out-of-body experiences (http://iands.org/research/important-res ... ml?start=3 ).


Please note Dr. Gregory Stone provides a full critique of Susan Blackmore’s Dying to Live and this is published on IANDS for additionally criticisms.


I appreciate the apparently good faith effort here, but so far this isn't very convincing. You've got NDE adherants admitting that Ketamine produces NDE-like experiences, yet objecting because not every subjective NDE experience was identical to subjective Katamine experiences - yet they admit they're generally same types of experiences.

Then we have the LDS-like testimony, "I now believe that there most definitely is a soul that is independent of experience." Based on what, exactly? They don't say.

And then there's the self contradiction about whether Ketamine being positive or not:

"Ketamine is an anesthetic drug that acts like glutamate and is sometimes used as a street drug because of its pleasant subjective effects."

vs.

"NDErs mostly report positive feelings from the experience whereas ketamine experiences more often report differently. "

Then there's this gem:

"I cannot recall one person who had a non-drug affiliated genuine greyson scale nde and also experienced drug use, such as LSD, Ketamine, etc that say they are similar in anyway, just researchers." Hardly an argument. Easily explained by confirmation bias - the strong desire to believe in NDEs - or perhaps by other chemicals released during trauma. The "I cannot recall" doesn't inspire confidence either.

"In addition, Ketamine does not explain away the accuracies of out-of-body perceptions in people who lacked any brain activity whatsoever." - That's making the large assumption that people experiencing this level of trauma can accurately track time.
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_Themis
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _Themis »

lostindc wrote:Also, it is not very clear whether ketamine experiences actually replicate ndes. In fact, most nders suggest this is not the case at all. NDErs mostly report positive feelings from the experience whereas ketamine experiences more often report differently. I cannot recall one person who had a non-drug affiliated genuine greyson scale nde and also experienced drug use, such as LSD, Ketamine, etc that say they are similar in anyway, just researchers.


I wouldn't think this would be a surprise to anyone, especially researchers. Even if we ignore the possibilites of supernatural things going on, or people having a spirit, taking ketamine will never exactly replicate what is going on in the brain chemically during a NDE. Even different drugs will have different effects.

In addition, Ketamine does not explain away the accuracies of out-of-body perceptions in people who lacked any brain activity whatsoever.


Tarski brought this up in another thread, but can you provide how they determined when a person was having an out-of-body experience. Was it before, during, or after brain activity stopped?
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_Hoops
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _Hoops »

—one study of 58 patients who recounted near-death experiences found 30 were not actually in danger of dying, although most of them thought they were.[/quote]Most of whom? 30 thought they were dying? What does this mean in a medical sense?

Recently, a host of studies has revealed potential underpinnings for all the elements of such experiences. "Many of the phenomena associated with near-death experiences can be biologically explained," says neuroscientist Dean Mobbs,

For instance, the feeling of being dead is not limited to near-death experiences—patients with Cotard or "walking corpse" syndrome hold the delusional belief that they are deceased. This disorder has occurred following trauma, such as during advanced stages of typhoid and multiple sclerosis, and has been linked with brain regions such as the parietal cortex and the prefrontal cortex—"the parietal cortex is typically involved in attentional processes, and the prefrontal cortex is involved in delusions observed in psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia," Mobbs explains. Although the mechanism behind the syndrome remains unknown, one possible explanation is that patients are trying to make sense of the strange experiences they are having.

Out-of-body experiences are also now known to be common during interrupted sleep patterns that immediately precede sleeping or waking. For instance, sleep paralysis, or the experience of feeling paralyzed while still aware of the outside world, is reported in up to 40 percent of all people and is linked with vivid dreamlike hallucinations that can result in the sensation of floating above one's body. A 2005 study found that out-of-body experiences can be artificially triggered by stimulating the right temporoparietal junction in the brain, suggesting that confusion regarding sensory information can radically alter how one experiences one's body.

A variety of explanations might also account for reports by those dying of meeting the deceased. Parkinson's disease patients, for example, have reported visions of ghosts, even monsters. The explanation? Parkinson's involves abnormal functioning of dopamine, a neurotransmitter that can evoke hallucinations. And when it comes to the common experience of reliving moments from one's life, one culprit might be the locus coeruleus, a midbrain region that releases noradrenaline, a stress hormone one would expect to be released in high levels during trauma. The locus coeruleus is highly connected with brain regions that mediate emotion and memory, such as the amygdala and hypothalamus.

In addition, research now shows that a number of medicinal and recreational drugs can mirror the euphoria often felt in near-death experiences, such as the anesthetic ketamine, which can also trigger out-of-body experiences and hallucinations. Ketamine affects the brain's opioid system, which can naturally become active even without drugs when animals are under attack, suggesting trauma might set off this aspect of near-death experiences, Mobbs explains.

Finally, one of the most famous aspects of near-death hallucinations is moving through a tunnel toward a bright light. Although the specific causes of this part of near-death experiences remain unclear, tunnel vision can occur when blood and oxygen flow is depleted to the eye, as can happen with the extreme fear and oxygen loss that are both common to dying.

Altogether, scientific evidence suggests that all features of the near-death experience have some basis in normal brain function gone awry. Moreover, the very knowledge of the lore regarding near-death episodes might play a crucial role in experiencing them—a self-fulfilling prophecy. Such findings "provide scientific evidence for something that has always been in the realm of paranormality," Mobbs says. "I personally believe that understanding the process of dying can help us come to terms with this inevitable part of life." - Why?

One potential obstacle to further research on near-death experiences will be analyzing them experimentally, says cognitive neuroscientist Olaf Blanke at the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne in Switzerland, who has investigated out-of-body experiences. Still, "our work has shown that this can be done for out-of-body experiences, so why not for near-death-experience-associated sensations?"


I won't have time to comment much today. Just thought I'd share with the rest of the class. :)[/quote]
_Brackite
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _Brackite »

Science has Proven the theory of Evolution.
Science has Not proven away near death experiences.

I believe in both consciousness after death and in Evolution.


The NDE and Science:
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research08.html
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_Milesius
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _Milesius »

Cognitive "science" is the young earth creationism of psychology.
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_lostindc
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _lostindc »

Buffalo states:

I appreciate the apparently good faith effort here, but so far this isn't very convincing.

I am not hear to convince you about the validity of the nde.

You've got NDE adherants admitting that Ketamine produces NDE-like experiences, yet objecting because not every subjective NDE experience was identical to subjective Katamine experiences - yet they admit they're generally same types of experiences.


One clear statement made by NDE researchers is NDEs are very much different from Ketamine experiences and Ketamine can only replicate a fraction of a NDE in each individual Ketamine experience.


Then we have the LDS-like testimony, "I now believe that there most definitely is a soul that is independent of experience." Based on what, exactly? They don't say.


Apparently, his research all of which follows rigorous standards. We can dive into these particular studies if you want to discuss evidence for NDEs but right now I thought we were discussing Ketamine, a drug, and whether it can cause replication of the NDE, which it cannot. Those researchers that claim it can only spout rhetoric and not raw research. A comparison of the differences of a Ketamine experience and a NDE has been completed by Dr. Fenwick and by Lommel. Also, see the example in my previous post of a ketamine experience. This is the most common ketamine experience that researchers try to equate with the nde.

And then there's the self contradiction about whether Ketamine being positive or not:


"Ketamine is an anesthetic drug that acts like glutamate and is sometimes used as a street drug because of its pleasant subjective effects."

vs.

"NDErs mostly report positive feelings from the experience whereas ketamine experiences more often report differently. "


From surveys comparing the responses from individuals experiencing both the above conclusions were found. These are not guesses.

Then there's this gem:

"I cannot recall one person who had a non-drug affiliated genuine greyson scale nde and also experienced drug use, such as LSD, Ketamine, etc that say they are similar in anyway, just researchers." Hardly an argument. Easily explained by confirmation bias - the strong desire to believe in NDEs - or perhaps by other chemicals released during trauma. The "I cannot recall" doesn't inspire confidence either.


If you can find one please do post. I believe you will have a great deal of trouble finding one reputable statement by a non-anonymous person.
"In addition, Ketamine does not explain away the accuracies of out-of-body perceptions in people who lacked any brain activity whatsoever."- That's making the large assumption that people experiencing this level of trauma can accurately track time.


When you want to discuss certain evidences we can dive into the subject, right now we are focused on Ketamine.

Do you have any thoughts on the statement I posted earlier:

"The ketamine model/hypothesis is an argument of a relationship between human biology and the transcendental experience. One can easily come to the conclusion that the mind is an entryway between the physical and spiritual worlds and therefore ketamine should not be used as a tool to demystify the nde."

Perhaps ketamine is a helpful tool in proving the nde?
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_CaliforniaKid
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

lostindc wrote:Hey there CAKid, hope life is treating you well. You mind staying out of this thread and perhaps starting another thread on this subject?

Since it seems you're actually discussing the science rather than pseudo-philosophy, that won't be necessary.

I realize I started the thread and you are likely very proud of the blog post/wiki-like text on posivitism since you went out of your way to share and link but I am all but impressed.

lol.
_Hoops
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Re: More bad news for our friends who believe in the soul & NDEs

Post by _Hoops »

I have no doubt that this is a strategy you use liberally (lying to yourself to get a good night's rest). In fact, your view of scientists is likely the biggest BS story you tell yourself... well, other than all your primary religious fantasies, of course.

Oh, are you done with your Pop-Tart and having something to say to the big people? Okay, here, climb up on your booster seat and we'll all listen. Now.... go ahead.
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