Kevin Graham wrote:So what you're saying is you think the majority of Mormons, in some way, manage to set aside their knowledge that being a missionary towards non-members is a commandment, and that in so doing, they will receive blessings in this life and in the next?
I understand that Mormonism emphasizes obedience and blessings. But I do not think that this is foremost in every members mind for every move they make, every friend they take, every service endeavor the complete. It is in the undertone? Sure. More for some than others? I imagine. But I think many LDS member are mature enough to not make this the focus of everything they do. Again from my own vantage point I as a TBM I made plenty fo non LDS friends. Did I want to share the LDS gospel with them. Yes if I had the chance. Was it on my mind on a regular prevailing basis? Hardly.
As for service, well next weekend I will be spending a Saturday and Sunday as part of a work team going to areas flooded by the past hurricane and follow up tropical storm. About 10 men from my ward are going. I don't think any of them are sitting there gloating about adding to their blessings bank account. Rather I think they genuinely want to go help those in need.
And yes I imagine we will be asked to wear the stupid shirts. I would like to ditch those.
If someone tells you he plays the lottery because he wants to help the local gas stations with their business, and not because he hopes to receive a reward, would you believe him? If I get paid money for helping someone with build their house, in what sense can this be said to be true, selfless charity? You can say, well I don't care if I get paid, I'm going to help him because I'm a charitable kinda guy. But this begs the question. How can one ignore the compensation one anticipates from said action?
Ultimately all of us have some sort of self interest that motivates us. The idea os obedience to God, serving our fellow men, etc is entrenched in the ideals of Christianity, not just the LDS Church. But everyone is motivated out of something that is partly in self interest. Even if nothing else from the good feeling that comes from doing something nice for someone else.
And more importantly why do their attitudes drastically change when it comes to apostates? I can tell you that I know for a fact that this is true, whether it be in Brazil, California, Madrid, Orlando or Atlanta. Once the local Mormons find out you're a former member, their attitudes change drastically. You can be a never-Mo because most people are. But an Ex-Mo? Forget about it. They'll avoid you like the plague. Now this proves to me that I am right about this. You think I am describing a fanatical fringe within the Church, but in my experience the opposite is true.
I believe I already agreed that often those departing the fold are marginalized and I think they are because members cannot imagine why someone would honestly leave the one true church. It threatens their own testimony to accept that someone may have left for reasonable issues.
And when I was a TBM and single, I attended the Singles Ward in Atlanta. I can tell you that the few guys who were exed and rebaptized, were avoided at all costs. They still came to church and sat in the back pews all the time. Most of them were exed for having sex with their girlfriends. And whenever an unsuspecting female who was new to the ward thought about dating one of them, the faithful guys would pull her aside and try to dissuade her from doing so. I was involved in this and I saw this throughout my 10+ years of faithful LDS membership. I saw it in the Church on three different continents, so it wasn't like I was trapped within an odd or unique Mormon environment the whole time.
Unfortunately for me I did not really experience much of the singles scene in or out of the Church since I was married to my my wife about 8 months after my mission.
Though I can tell you that whenever the issue of sharing the gospel with friends comes up where I live it is emphasized not to do what you have described. In others words just be friends and stay friends regardless of whether someone is interested or not.
Oh I agree that they'll state in Church talks that they shouldn't be so judgmental, but the fact is most Mormons don't practice this preaching, which is probably why it became a subject to talk about in the first place.
Of course it happens. I never said it did not. In fact I think this is one of the reasons that the Church now focuses less on going out and doing all sorts of activities with someone then popping the question on them. Now it is just look for opportunities any where to share the gospel. May be with someone you are friends with or it may be someone you meet at the bank. Of course making friends and sharing the gospel if it is the right situation is still encouraged.
Are the two mutually exclusive?
Yes I believe so. The Church has always tried to keep members safe and secure in the Mormon social network. Too much socializing with the Gentiles could lead to more problems for the members and for the Church, since the Church thinks it has the responsibility of keeping the members faithful. This is why you can lose your temple recommend for talking to the wrong people, and it is why parents generally do not allow their kids to date Gentiles.
Personally I have never felt any discouragement from having non LDS friends. Not one bit ever.
Sort of like Christian and non Christian? Listen, you need words to describe people. Personally I have never liked gentile. And I prefer non LDS to non member.
Mormonism takes it to another level Jason. I remember in 1997 my girlfriend was getting baptized, and she told me the one thing that annoyed the hell out of her was the way everyone at Church referred to other people as non-Members, and they referred to "The Church" as if it were the only one on the planet that mattered. People visiting Baptist or Catholic Churches are assumed to be Christians of some stripe. People visiting a Mormon Church are not assumed to be Mormon.
Are you sure? I cannot tell you how many EV Christians I have met who asked me whether I was saved or when I got saved. There certainly is a pressure in that group for one to get saved and a major distinction between the saved and unsaved.
Not where I live. My kids dated non members.
Well that's cool. You must not live in Utah.
Correct.
But I know that it is encourages to date members because you marry those you date.
Exactly, which is why the Church advised LDS parents to forbid their kids from dating non-Members.
Yea I said I heard this and heard if often. Kimball said it all the time.
Absolutely NONE of this has conversion as its main motivator.
But it does have obedience as its main motivator. Obedience leads to salvation.
Obedience is an element of all Christian faiths. I was listening to an EV station the other night and this dude was hammering on obedience. I understand the differences though. But honestly if one really believes to obey God is essential than so what? Again, I think more spiritually mature don't think all that much about this as a motivator.
Again by radicals.
Radicals according to whom?
Me. And based on what I heard Peterson discuss on the Mormon Stories Podcast, he feels the same about some. And I understand his predicament in speaking out. And others. Elder Ballard has spoken about how we should interact with others particularly on the internet.
Kevin I like you. But I think the reason is more because you can be very strong and outspoken in your delivery.
Don't think I haven't considered this. I hear it a lot and I take it to heart when folks I respect say it, you included. But if this is really true, then how do you explain the examples I provided? I'm extremely self-critical and I self-reflect all the time. This is why I can change my viewpoints as much as I have. But I have to be honest with the evidence, and the evidence suggests overwhelmingly, at least to me, that Dan Peterson despises anyone who challenges him in public. Think about it. Who on these forums, who has challenged him, can seriously be called a friend of Dan Peterson?
I have challenged him on a few points and I think he seem friendly towards me. Though I will admit that I do not challenge him often of very rigorously. Are there a few others here? Maybe. I would have to look into this more.
How did they view Don Bradley when he was an atheist and critic?
Not sure,
I am. He was fairly respected.
but others here seem tor ecall the way they fawned over him once he was rebaptized.
Yes that is true as well.
However, this hasn't really changed Schryver's attitude towards him
And he is a loon.
Schryver is a nut job when it comes to his paranoia about fifth columnists and taking it on himself to root out apostates. Even his posting style of tossing out scripture to condemn and pronouncing curses and prophecy of persons apostasy like he is Moses on Mt. Sinai is flat out looney.
More like Porter Rockwell, who is is probably trying to emulate. But you're missing the point that the Mormons disagree with you. At least the ones online. Even those who are disgusted with his antics, refuse to say they are disgusted. They'll just say something like they don't condone it, and then try to paint him as a victim who was pushed to fight back. Why would Pahoran or Robert Crockett or Dan Peterson do this, if Schryver were just a nutjob who wasn't representative of the Church? I think there are a number of apostates who see in Schryver, precisely the kind of hatred and bigotry they experienced from Mormons after they left the faith.
I also do not think the LDS people who post on message boards like this and MDD are very representative of most sitting in the pews.
I disagree and I believe the leaders would condemn their actions.
Oh I am sure they would if they had cameras in their faces. They'd never condone this behavior in public, but the fact is it is their teachings that produce miserable characters like Schryver.
I do not think it would just be in front of the cameras. And the fact that some get extreme like Schryver is not the fault of the teachings of the church. Any religion can be distorted and usually is by some of the adherents.
Not off hand. Under "Apostate" it mentions how most of them leave because they sinned and didn't want to repent. And I have seen several long winded discussions play out over at MAD over the years where the majority of Mormons challenge this notion that people can have legitimate reasons for leaving the faith. Without exception, every Mormon there told stories about how they "know" apostates leave because of reasons that had nothing to do with intellectual honesty. It was always about a desire to drink, or smoke, or covet the neighbor's wife. Even Dan Peterson got in on the action and supported these claims, never once conceding the possibility that people could have legitimate reasons for leaving the faith.
I have seen it writing and even heard Peterson concede that there are those who leave for intellectual or other reasons than sinning.