Blocked from posting at MDD -- Mor. 10:3-5 question

[_Gadianton]

Objective truth? Whoever said Moroni 10:3-5 resulted in objective truth? I certainly never have. It's subjective, all right, but what's the alternative? What other way is there to find out the truth about God's will in our lives?

Hi Kevin, welcome to the board.

There are all kinds of ways God could reveal his plan for our lives. He could come down out of the sky and call a conference. I think the question you should be asking is: What other way is there for TBMs to claim God is talking to them without ever having to substantiate?

[_KevinSim]

Hi Kevin, welcome to the board.

Thanks, Gadianton. I like this place. It's really interesting.

There are all kinds of ways God could reveal his plan for our lives. He could come down out of the sky and call a conference.

I didn't ask what "kinds of ways God could reveal his plan for our lives"; I asked what "other way is there to find out the truth about God's will in our lives." Perhaps I worded it badly; maybe I should have asked, what other way is there for us to find out the truth about God's will in our lives?

Why would God want to "come down out of the sky and call a conference"?

I think the question you should be asking is: What other way is there for TBMs to claim God is talking to them without ever having to substantiate?

Why do TBMS (I'm still trying to figure out if I am one or not) need to substantiate?

KevinSim

[_why me]

15. The answer from God comes almost exclusively in the form of "feelings"
16. Another god is unable to answer your prayer (i.e. Lucifer).

I think that the early saints at the time of Paul were also dealing with feelings. How else can the holy ghost speak to us except through feelings? If I remember correctly Paul was also writing about the holy ghost testifying to us. So, the Mormons are right on track. Now of course some faiths mock the feeling notion. But they can not answer how the holy ghost communicates to us without the spirit of feeling.

[_why me]

There are all kinds of ways God could reveal his plan for our lives. He could come down out of the sky and call a conference. I think the question you should be asking is: What other way is there for TBMs to claim God is talking to them without ever having to substantiate?

Of course if god would come down from the sky, we can all relax in the knowledge that there is a god. We can also begin to reform our lives to get to heaven. But unfortunately this is not the way it is. Even from the time of Paul and the apostles, it became based on feelings and the promptings of the spirit.

[_Nightlion]

I was blocked from posting on the MDB after I made the following post:

After rereading Moroni 10:3-5 with my new perspective on religion (as a non-believer), I realized that there are several implicit assumptions made in taking the "Moroni challenge". For those not familiar with it, here is the text of the promise.

merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.
ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
know the btruth of all things.

Assumptions (short list):

1. God(s) exists.
2. Thinking about the scriptures increases the likelihood that said god(s) will answer your prayer
3. Adam was a real person
4. The earth was created by god
5. God(s) are willing to answer human prayers
6. Praying is an effective way to communicate with god(s)
7. God(s) is/are willing to manifest truth to people who pray
8. A sincere heart affects whether you will get an answer
9. Real intent affects whether you will get an answer
10. Jesus Christ was a real person
11.The Holy Ghost is an effective way of communicating with God(s).
12. It will be the god(s) in question answering your prayer and not another god(s).
13. The answer will be confirmation that the Book of Mormon is true.
14. God has been good to the children of men.

Also, not explicitly stated in the verses but implied in Mormon culture are the following assumptions:

15. The answer from God comes almost exclusively in the form of "feelings"
16. Another god is unable to answer your prayer (i.e. Lucifer).

There are also other assumptions built into this "promise", but let's start with these. Do we have any outside (e.g. logical) verification that the above assumptions are valid? In other words, how do we know that Mor. 10:3-5 is a valid way to arrive at objective "truth".

I think the only relevant point Moroni left out was that you must be OF THE TRUTH, in other words, one of those little ones whom that Father has given and put into the hands of Christ before anything spoken by the prophets will manifest in you. Sorry. Did you think everything must be fairsy-waresy and Even-Stephen as if administered by a nanny in daycare? Hmm?

John 10:26-27
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 6:
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I cannot find the quote where Jesus says to the Jews that they cannot believe because they are not of the truth. The point is that the love of God must abide in you which is his word, which is true. Those who love the word of God hear his voice and will follow him. In contrast Satan was a liar from the beginning.

John 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Kind of like this generation that speaks up all their own opinions which amount to nothing more than a lie.

[_moksha]

What other way is there for TBMs to claim God is talking to them without ever having to substantiate?

By bringing me a plate of Pad Thai followed by a Baklava. I know that after dinner I would nod in blissful contentment. Would you care for something to eat?

[_Gadianton]

Why would God want to "come down out of the sky and call a conference"?

...that other way is there for us to find out the truth about God's will in our lives?

Given that God doesn't "want to" be straightforward about it, apparently, there is no other way to find out about God's will save be the one method that is easiest for people to lie about.

Why do TBMS (I'm still trying to figure out if I am one or not) need to substantiate?

Hey, the Lafferty Bros felt the same way. Why should anyone answer for God's private instructions to them?

[_Scottie]

If you ask apologists, they will tell you to carefully read the verse.

It says that you are supposed to believe first THEN ask if these things are NOT true. You are not supposed to have doubts and pray to know if it IS true.

[_sock puppet]

If you ask apologists, they will tell you to carefully read the verse.

It says that you are supposed to believe first THEN ask if these things are NOT true. You are not supposed to have doubts and pray to know if it IS true.

I agree. The way it reads, one has to brainwash himself first, then once self-convinced he prays about it--and gosh darn, he'll feel good in affirming that he has reached the right conclusion.

If you haven't yet brainwashed yourself, that is, you yet have an open mind, when you pray, you'll yet be undecided (stupor of thought).

If after praying you yet are not decided (stupor of thought), well then gosh darn it, it means you hadn't yet succeeded in brainwashing yourself before you prayed.

I hear people that have never been Mormon or looked into tell me that as to one matter or another, the studied the issues and alternatives, decided on one, and boy, a week later they still feel good about the decision they reached so they are going with it. Not very remarkable and not unique to Mormonism or Book of Mormon issues. It's basic human psychology.

[_keithb]

Moroni 10:3-5 isn't true because of what verses three through five say. Anybody who thought that should have his head examined. The principle embodied in 10:3-5 is true because of how it resonates with common sense. That being the case the only relevant assumptions are #1, #5, #8, and #9. Assumptions #6 and #7 follow from #5.



Objective truth? Whoever said Moroni 10:3-5 resulted in objective truth? I certainly never have. It's subjective, all right, but what's the alternative? What other way is there to find out the truth about God's will in our lives?

KevinSim

Welcome to the board Kevin!

On your first point, I would say that assumptions 5,6, and 7 don't necessarily follow, depending on your model of God. For example, we could have a Deist model of god where God exists but doesn't interact with humanity, negating assumption 5. Also, we could have a Calvinist God that chooses who to reveal the truth to or not independent of human effort, negating assumption 6.

As for the second statement, let me propose something. Let's say I claim to have been abducted by aliens. Is this statement objectively true? Is it subjectively true (whatever that means)? Because I believe it strongly, does it mean that mean that belief should be respected? What would be some methods to decide if the statement was true in a factual sense or not?