Believers instinctively know that Jesus was full of it

[_Hoops]

A literalist is not required to take everything in the Bible literally. Only to begin there. It is clear that this verse is making a much broader, attitudinal point.

It can be argued that Luke was writing to a Greek audience, whether they were converts or not may not be so clear. But, more importantly, we must remember that Jesus' words as recorded by Luke, came at a time when Jesus was still preaching The Kingdom of God. This is NOT the church, rather, it is the literal thousand year reign of Christ. It is the Messiahship that Israel had been looking for, and rejected.

Buffalo's single verse, violently pulled from its context, is smack dab in the middle of teaching parables about recognizing that The Kingdom of God is at hand. Or near. Or right in front of them if they would only believe their own scriptures. You know the rest.

Note that in Luke 14:1 Jesus knows he is being watched by the pharisees. And, of course, He calls them out for protesting healing on the Sabbath. It's clear that this chapter, and those surrounding it, is not about doing this or that to be compliant, rather it is about recognizing who Jesus is, The Messiah. And by doing so, ushering in His Messiahship, The Kingdom of God, and by heeding Jesus' words and doing good, one can gain TKoG. In other words, the pharisees are so concerned about their rules and rituals that they fail to see what is right in front of them. All of these chapters, starting at about Luke 11 I think, are about true repentance, Israel repenting of their national sin, which is not recognizing who Jesus is. (Yes, I know repentance used in later chapter regarding a specific circumstance, but even then, the story is about recognizing who Jesus is).

To further amplify this point, it's interesting to note that every non-Christian religion regards Jesus as something other than what a Christian claims. A prophet, great teacher, one of many or several gods. Recognizing Jesus as the One, True God is repentance.

A few chapters later - again, still preaching TKoG, Zacheuss agrees to give up HALF of what he has. Jesus responded that salvation has come to this house today. So in one instance all is required, in another only half. But what is the constant? One chose not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the other did believe. So the point is for Israel to set aside, or give up what is most dear to them, the rules and rituals instituted by their leaders - their Israel-ness, if you will - and recognize what is right in front of them. In addition, Jesus is asking about the challenge of becoming an apostle, or disciple, to preach TKoG to an unbelieving nation. See Luke 21. The authorities, obviously, would be against them. Note Luke 17:20 "...The Kingdom of God is in your midst."

Note also in Luke 18 that Jesus predicts his death, for the third time I think, and that the apostles didn't understand. Here is where we begin to see Jesus' ministry shifting from focused on Israel to Gentiles. Though certainly fleshed out more in other gospels, the parallels are there.

[_Hoops]

Me too.

But Hoops typically does not give any substance. Just small quips like the ones above. Too bad.

Yeah, Jason, that's it.

When one plucks a verse from its context with the obvious and single intention of requiring others to adhere to an interpretation to which they don't subscribe, there really isn't a lot of room for discussion.

I'm not sure why I should be asked to defend a position I don't have.

[_hatersinmyward]

To further amplify this point, it's interesting to note that every non-Christian religion regards Jesus as something other than what a Christian claims. A prophet, great teacher, one of many or several gods. Recognizing Jesus as the One, True God is repentance.

A few chapters later - again, still preaching TKoG, Zacheuss agrees to give up HALF of what he has. Jesus responded that salvation has come to this house today. So in one instance all is required, in another only half. But what is the constant? One chose not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the other did believe. So the point is for Israel to set aside, or give up what is most dear to them, the rules and rituals instituted by their leaders - their Israel-ness, if you will - and recognize what is right in front of them. In addition, Jesus is asking about the challenge of becoming an apostle, or disciple, to preach TKoG to an unbelieving nation. See Luke 21. The authorities, obviously, would be against them. Note Luke 17:20 "...The Kingdom of God is in your midst."

The Pahrisees permitting and encouraging the whole of Jerusalem to pull the mass wool over the eyes of Jesus and his deciples would have been a far more effective method. NOT!!!

[_Hoops]

The Pahrisees permitting and encouraging the whole of Jerusalem to pull the mass wool over the eyes of Jesus and his deciples would have been a far more effective method. NOT!!!

I have no idea what you're saying.

[_Jersey Girl]

Buff,

If you are seriously wanting discussion of these verses, you need to make a thread for each one for each collection of verses warrants separate discussions. Don't expect people to take these random verses and respond to one or more of them and then field comments by others.

It is asking too much.

for what it's worth, I agree with Hoops about pulling select verses out of context. When you rob the verses of context, you lose all meaning.

[_Uncle Dale]

...
Recognizing Jesus as the One, True God is repentance.
...

I doubt very much that anybody can produce a quote in
which he says such a thing.

Rather, I suppose that he would direct our attention to his
Father, in Heaven -- who alone is good.

I'd also hazard the opinion, that a penitent Jew who came
to John for baptism in the Jordan might have confessed just
as valid and fruitful a repentance, as his cousin in some other
village, who a few years later confessed a sincere repentance
to one of Jesus' disciples.

UD

[_Nightlion]

about certain subjects. That's why they ignore certain teachings across almost all sects. Examples:

Luke 14:33
So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

D&C 29: 35
35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.

This is why you never will understand spiritual things.

Moses 5: 13
13 And Satan came among them, saying: I am also a son of God; and he commanded them, saying: Believe it not; and they believed it not, and they loved Satan more than God. And men began from that time forth to be carnal, sensual, and devilish.


Jeremiah 4: 4
4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

This last one is spiritual too. You would have to render it literal some how I imagine. And you would laugh and mock God knowing what a good guy you are.

[_Hoops]

I doubt very much that anybody can produce a quote in
which he says such a thing.

Is that necessary? Nonetheless, I would direct one, first, to the "keys" verse Mormons are so fond of.

Rather, I suppose that he would direct our attention to his
Father, in Heaven -- who alone is good.

If He was directing that one's attention to the idea that knowing who and what is good, and who and what isn't, He certainly would. In fact, He did.

I'd also hazard the opinion, that a penitent Jew who came
to John for baptism in the Jordan might have confessed just
as valid and fruitful a repentance, as his cousin in some other
village, who a few years later confessed a sincere repentance
to one of Jesus' disciples.

Can't really tell if you're claiming that I'm saying anything different. Assuming I undertand your point.

[_Buffalo]

Buff,

If you are seriously wanting discussion of these verses, you need to make a thread for each one for each collection of verses warrants separate discussions. Don't expect people to take these random verses and respond to one or more of them and then field comments by others.

It is asking too much.

for what it's worth, I agree with Hoops about pulling select verses out of context. When you rob the verses of context, you lose all meaning.

That seems to be a code phrase for "I'm uncomfortable living up to what's expressed in this verse, so I prefer to reinterpret until it conforms to my comfort level."

[_Phillip]

Buffalo,

You are right to call Christians on their selective approach to Jesus’ teachings. The hard sayings are usually ignored or downplayed. It’s easier to make Jesus into some sort of apologist for our own culture, values, or aspirations (prosperity gospels, Jesus endorses the American constitution), glossing over just how radical and demanding his teachings really are. I think most of us would find it pretty uncomfortable if we actually spent some time with the Jesus that is portrayed in the gospels.

Thomas a Kempis in the 15th century had a better grasp on this than most of his fellow believers do:

“Jesus has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the shame of the Cross.

Do not those who always seek consolation deserve to be called mercenaries? Do not those who always think of their own profit and gain prove that they love themselves rather than Christ? Where can a man be found who desires to serve God for nothing? Rarely indeed is a man so spiritual as to strip himself of all things. And who shall find a man so truly poor in spirit as to be free from every creature? His value is like that of things brought from the most distant lands.”

The book ‘Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream’ by David Platt addresses some of these issues. From the product description on Amazon:

“What is Jesus worth to you?

It's easy for American Christians to forget how Jesus said his followers would actually live, what their new lifestyle would actually look like. They would, he said, leave behind security, money, convenience, even family for him. They would abandon everything for the gospel. They would take up their crosses daily...

But who do you know who lives like that? Do you?”