That seems to be a code phrase for "I'm uncomfortable living up to what's expressed in this verse, so I prefer to reinterpret until it conforms to my comfort level."
Plesae do.You are right to call Christians on their selective approach to Jesus’ teachings.
which means what? What would it take for you to see it as UNusual?The hard sayings are usually ignored or downplayed.
Taking a small slice of Protestantism as normative hardly helps your case. Whatever it is.It’s easier to make Jesus into some sort of apologist for our own culture, values, or aspirations (prosperity gospels, Jesus endorses the American constitution),
So we must conform to YOUR idea of what is radical? I know lots of Christians who live radically.glossing over just how radical and demanding his teachings really are.
Not me.I think most of us would find it pretty uncomfortable if we actually spent some time with the Jesus that is portrayed in the gospels.
Okay, we get it it. YOu're well read and you, obviously, have done an exhaustive study of this very subject. However, for you to condemn the rest of us, or any of us, you have to explain how we are not doing what is described above. What would this life look like to you? And is your view the only one that has compatability of this?Thomas a Kempis in the 15th century had a better grasp on this than most of his fellow believers do:
“Jesus has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the shame of the Cross.
The book ‘Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream’ by David Platt addresses some of these issues. From the product description on Amazon:
“What is Jesus worth to you?
What does "American Christians" have to do with anything? I sense a bit of xenophobia here. But, be that as it may, I know several who have done exactly what you've described. I have not. Does that make me "less" in some quantitave way? Qualitative way? Explain how.It's easy for American Christians to forget how Jesus said his followers would actually live, what their new lifestyle would actually look like. They would, he said, leave behind security, money, convenience, even family for him. They would abandon everything for the gospel. They would take up their crosses daily...
But who do you know who lives like that? Do you?”
Hoops wrote:
That seems to be a code phrase for "I'm uncomfortable living up to what's expressed in this verse, so I prefer to reinterpret until it conforms to my comfort level."
And this seems to be a code phrase for: "I'm not comfortable actually discussing these verses as the potential for disabusing me of my tired, simplistic, and polemically charged views is too great."
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
Still waiting for you to contribute something of substance to this or any thread.
*looks at watch*
Hoops wrote:just me wrote:Hoops, I would actually enjoy reading a real response from you, as a literalist, on this topic. How do you personally live these words of Jesus? Do you understand and interpret them literally? Why or why not?
If you have the time, of course.
I'd love to. Gimme a sec', I'm supposed to be doing something else.
I'll get on the first one first.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
Hoops wrote:Plesae do.You are right to call Christians on their selective approach to Jesus’ teachings.which means what? What would it take for you to see it as UNusual?The hard sayings are usually ignored or downplayed.Taking a small slice of Protestantism as normative hardly helps your case. Whatever it is.It’s easier to make Jesus into some sort of apologist for our own culture, values, or aspirations (prosperity gospels, Jesus endorses the American constitution),So we must conform to YOUR idea of what is radical? I know lots of Christians who live radically.glossing over just how radical and demanding his teachings really are.Not me.I think most of us would find it pretty uncomfortable if we actually spent some time with the Jesus that is portrayed in the gospels.Okay, we get it it. YOu're well read and you, obviously, have done an exhaustive study of this very subject. However, for you to condemn the rest of us, or any of us, you have to explain how we are not doing what is described above. What would this life look like to you? And is your view the only one that has compatability of this?Thomas a Kempis in the 15th century had a better grasp on this than most of his fellow believers do:
“Jesus has always many who love His heavenly kingdom, but few who bear His cross. He has many who desire consolation, but few who care for trial. He finds many to share His table, but few to take part in His fasting. All desire to be happy with Him; few wish to suffer anything for Him. Many follow Him to the breaking of bread, but few to the drinking of the chalice of His passion. Many revere His miracles; few approach the shame of the Cross.The book ‘Radical: Taking Back Your Faith from the American Dream’ by David Platt addresses some of these issues. From the product description on Amazon:
“What is Jesus worth to you?
See above.What does "American Christians" have to do with anything? I sense a bit of xenophobia here. But, be that as it may, I know several who have done exactly what you've described. I have not. Does that make me "less" in some quantitave way? Qualitative way? Explain how.It's easy for American Christians to forget how Jesus said his followers would actually live, what their new lifestyle would actually look like. They would, he said, leave behind security, money, convenience, even family for him. They would abandon everything for the gospel. They would take up their crosses daily...
But who do you know who lives like that? Do you?”
I've done things for the cause of Christ that only I can do, given my unique background, skill-set, and expertise. Does this make me any more than anyone else? I don't think so. Do you?
Hoops wrote:A literalist is not required to take everything in the Bible literally. Only to begin there. It is clear that this verse is making a much broader, attitudinal point.
It can be argued that Luke was writing to a Greek audience, whether they were converts or not may not be so clear. But, more importantly, we must remember that Jesus' words as recorded by Luke, came at a time when Jesus was still preaching The Kingdom of God. This is NOT the church, rather, it is the literal thousand year reign of Christ. It is the Messiahship that Israel had been looking for, and rejected.
Buffalo's single verse, violently pulled from its context, is smack dab in the middle of teaching parables about recognizing that The Kingdom of God is at hand. Or near. Or right in front of them if they would only believe their own scriptures. You know the rest.
Note that in Luke 14:1 Jesus knows he is being watched by the pharisees. And, of course, He calls them out for protesting healing on the Sabbath. It's clear that this chapter, and those surrounding it, is not about doing this or that to be compliant, rather it is about recognizing who Jesus is, The Messiah. And by doing so, ushering in His Messiahship, The Kingdom of God, and by heeding Jesus' words and doing good, one can gain TKoG. In other words, the pharisees are so concerned about their rules and rituals that they fail to see what is right in front of them. All of these chapters, starting at about Luke 11 I think, are about true repentance, Israel repenting of their national sin, which is not recognizing who Jesus is. (Yes, I know repentance used in later chapter regarding a specific circumstance, but even then, the story is about recognizing who Jesus is).
To further amplify this point, it's interesting to note that every non-Christian religion regards Jesus as something other than what a Christian claims. A prophet, great teacher, one of many or several gods. Recognizing Jesus as the One, True God is repentance.
A few chapters later - again, still preaching TKoG, Zacheuss agrees to give up HALF of what he has. Jesus responded that salvation has come to this house today. So in one instance all is required, in another only half. But what is the constant? One chose not to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the other did believe. So the point is for Israel to set aside, or give up what is most dear to them, the rules and rituals instituted by their leaders - their Israel-ness, if you will - and recognize what is right in front of them. In addition, Jesus is asking about the challenge of becoming an apostle, or disciple, to preach TKoG to an unbelieving nation. See Luke 21. The authorities, obviously, would be against them. Note Luke 17:20 "...The Kingdom of God is in your midst."
Note also in Luke 18 that Jesus predicts his death, for the third time I think, and that the apostles didn't understand. Here is where we begin to see Jesus' ministry shifting from focused on Israel to Gentiles. Though certainly fleshed out more in other gospels, the parallels are there.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
Phillip wrote:I also think that it is healthy when anyone, be they Christian or not, admonishes us to more fully live up to the challenge of the gospel. Complacency is the enemy of Christianity.