Believers instinctively know that Jesus was full of it

[_Hoops]

I consider myself a Christian

I suspected as much

and everything I wrote applies most of all to myself.

I would disagree. One of the surprising thing about being a Christian, and something that has vexed me for some time, is that an honest Christian will see just how utterly incomplete and incapable I am for living His words. So I can't agree. Your words apply more to me than anyone. I take great shame and joy in that. And that is one of the great mysteries of this faith.

you are probably more advanced on the path of discipleship than I am.

I doubt it. I think we each have our own path. That's entirely beautiful to me. And we can't compare my path to yours. They are different things.

Right now in my life I feel a lot of sympathy for that young ruler who Jesus commanded to sell everything and follow him.

That verse has struck me poignantly often over the last few years. I struggled with what it means in the broader context. I think I have a good handle on it, but I am always open to another view. And have changed mine many times.

I'm an American as well, and I probably shouldn't have singled out Americans. They are just the Christians that I am most familiar with. And the Mormons.

Being an American is a singular experience. As is being a Canadian. Or Kenyan. I don't think it's fair to impress upon one culture the demands of another. It's that path thingy - on a national scale.

[_just me]

I also think that it is healthy when anyone, be they Christian or not, admonishes us to more fully live up to the challenge of the gospel. Complacency is the enemy of Christianity.

What is the "challenge of the gospel" in your opinion? Because as a non-christian I would need to know what it is before I know if I endorse it or think it is healthy.

Why is complacency an enemy? Why is it wrong to feel safe and satisfied with your life or your current situation?
What is the desirable way to be? Never satisfied? Always searching? Always feeling crappy about ones life or situation and always struggling to make things different?

I no longer like the idea of always striving to live up to some manmade ideal of "perfection" and never quite reaching it. Always being admonished to "more fully live up" to something creates the mindset that you aren't living up to whatever the ideal is. It is a "you suck" message, basically.

So, help me understand.

[_Hoops]

Raises hand and mutters: "oohh, oohh"

[_Some Schmo]

I no longer like the idea of always striving to live up to some manmade ideal of "perfection" and never quite reaching it. Always being admonished to "more fully live up" to something creates the mindset that you aren't living up to whatever the ideal is. It is a "you suck" message, basically.

So, help me understand.

See, it's exceptionally arrogant to think you know the great mysteries of the universe and the nature of its creator, but no christian wants to acknowledge how arrogant they are about that, so they mentally self-flagellate in order to give themselves the illusion of humility.

I know the deep mysteries, but I suck at their practical application=christian humility.

[_Phillip]

I also think that it is healthy when anyone, be they Christian or not, admonishes us to more fully live up to the challenge of the gospel. Complacency is the enemy of Christianity.

What is the "challenge of the gospel" in your opinion? Because as a non-christian I would need to know what it is before I know if I endorse it or think it is healthy.

Why is complacency an enemy? Why is it wrong to feel safe and satisfied with your life or your current situation?
What is the desirable way to be? Never satisfied? Always searching? Always feeling crappy about ones life or situation and always struggling to make things different?

I no longer like the idea of always striving to live up to some manmade ideal of "perfection" and never quite reaching it. Always being admonished to "more fully live up" to something creates the mindset that you aren't living up to whatever the ideal is. It is a "you suck" message, basically.

So, help me understand.

I'm probably not the best person to answer your question. I'm still trying to sort through all this religion stuff myself. And there is a bit of 'you suck' to it all. The gospel certainly isn't a message of I'm ok, you're ok, everything is perfect just the way it is.

The 'challenge' of the gospel (and its not only found in the context of Christianity) as I see it is the choosing of the other over the self. That the path to enlightenment and fullfillment is not found in turning inward but in turning outward to God, to my fellow humans, to the natural world. That ultimately hell is an obsession with oneself. The gospel is about love for others.

Part of the message of Christianity, however, is that we cannot make this transformation by ourselves. We need help, i.e. grace. The burden doesn't fall all on us to be perfect. In fact, obsessing about one's faults and imperfections can itself be a form of self-absorbtion that leads us away from God (one more thing for us to worry about, right?)

[Bedlamite]

...
Assuming I understand your point.

You did not understand my point.

Let's say it's the year 29 -- and my name is Simeon, a pious old
Jew living in Jerusalem. I go down to the Jordan to hear John
preach, and am so moved my his message that I offer up a
sincere and complete repentance -- and John baptizes me.

I return home and a few days later quietly pass on to my
eternal reward -- never having confessed that Mary's son
is the God of Israel. To me he is only a Galilean rabbi who
is reported to have changed water into wine, etc.

A few years later, in 33 A.D., my cousin -- call him Joshua --
meets James, the brother of Jesus and is converted to the
new messianic gospel. Eventually he professes James' brother
to indeed be the Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

So -- do I go to hell, for having offered up a false repentance?
While my cousin goes to heaven for offering a true repentance?

I say that a biblical repentance does NOT need to confess that
Jesus is Jehovah. That sounds very much like Mormonism to me.

Uncle Dale

[_just me]

I'm probably not the best person to answer your question. I'm still trying to sort through all this religion stuff myself. And there is a bit of 'you suck' to it all. The gospel certainly isn't a message of I'm ok, you're ok, everything is perfect just the way it is.

The 'challenge' of the gospel (and its not only found in the context of Christianity) as I see it is the choosing of the other over the self. That the path to enlightenment and fullfillment is not found in turning inward but in turning outward to God, to my fellow humans, to the natural world. That ultimately hell is an obsession with oneself. The gospel is about love for others.

Part of the message of Christianity, however, is that we cannot make this transformation by ourselves. We need help, i.e. grace. The burden doesn't fall all on us to be perfect. In fact, obsessing about one's faults and imperfections can itself be a form of self-absorbtion that leads us away from God (one more thing for us to worry about, right?)

Well, I think the message of choosing "other" over self is an interesting one. It reminds me of the lesson given at the beginning of all plane flights to put on your own mask before attempting to help anyone else.

I would agree that total self-absorption and obsession would be incredibly hellish for most. However, the opposite would be equally as hellish. Self reflection and spending time with ones own thoughts and needs is actually a very healthy and beautiful thing.

The interesting thing about the Love One Another message (of which I have a bumper sticker and totally am on board with) is that it isn't just that. It is also "love your neighbor as yourself." So, so many people do not love themselves. That is a huge problem in my opinion. The companion message of christianity being "you suck" is so unhelpful in this regard.

I see that Jesus is completely unnecessary to the message of love one another. It is found in every culture and religion. Also, the love one another message has not historically been inclusive. It has been love those of the tribe/community. That has been changing, but the fact remains that it hasn't always been that way.

All one needs to do to know that Jesus isn't necessary for loving and taking care of others is look at a list of the top charitable givers/donors in the world and figure out what their religious affiliation is.

Anyway, I agree that when the christian message is distilled down to its root we find Love and Charity. Once I figured that out I was able to drop all the nonsense that went along with it.

[_Hoops]

...
Assuming I understand your point.

You did not understand my point.

Let's say it's the year 23 -- and my name is Simeon, a pious old
Jew living in Jerusalem. I go down to the Jordan to hear John
preach, and am so moved my his message that I offer up a
sincere and complete repentance -- and John baptizes me.

I return home and a few days later quietly pass on to my
eternal reward -- never having confessed that Mary's son
is the God of Israel.

A few of years later, in 33 A.D., my cousin -- call him Joshua --
meets James, the brother of Jesus and is converted to the
new messianic gospel. Eventually he professes James' brother
to indeed be the Lord God Almighty, maker of heaven and earth.

So -- do I go to hell, for having offered up a false repentance?
While my cousin goes to heaven for offering a true repentance?

I say that a biblical repentance does NOT need to confess that
Jesus is Jehovah. That sounds very much like Mormonism to me.

Uncle Dale

I do understand your point. It would seem there is a big difference to Israel between pre and post incarnation.

[_just me]

Raises hand and mutters: "oohh, oohh"

calls on Hoopie

[_Phillip]

I'm probably not the best person to answer your question. I'm still trying to sort through all this religion stuff myself. And there is a bit of 'you suck' to it all. The gospel certainly isn't a message of I'm ok, you're ok, everything is perfect just the way it is.

The 'challenge' of the gospel (and its not only found in the context of Christianity) as I see it is the choosing of the other over the self. That the path to enlightenment and fullfillment is not found in turning inward but in turning outward to God, to my fellow humans, to the natural world. That ultimately hell is an obsession with oneself. The gospel is about love for others.

Part of the message of Christianity, however, is that we cannot make this transformation by ourselves. We need help, i.e. grace. The burden doesn't fall all on us to be perfect. In fact, obsessing about one's faults and imperfections can itself be a form of self-absorbtion that leads us away from God (one more thing for us to worry about, right?)

Well, I think the message of choosing "other" over self is an interesting one. It reminds me of the lesson given at the beginning of all plane flights to put on your own mask before attempting to help anyone else.

I would agree that total self-absorption and obsession would be incredibly hellish for most. However, the opposite would be equally as hellish. Self reflection and spending time with ones own thoughts and needs is actually a very healthy and beautiful thing.

The interesting thing about the Love One Another message (of which I have a bumper sticker and totally am on board with) is that it isn't just that. It is also "love your neighbor as yourself." So, so many people do not love themselves. That is a huge problem in my opinion. The companion message of christianity being "you suck" is so unhelpful in this regard.

I see that Jesus is completely unnecessary to the message of love one another. It is found in every culture and religion. Also, the love one another message has not historically been inclusive. It has been love those of the tribe/community. That has been changing, but the fact remains that it hasn't always been that way.

All one needs to do to know that Jesus isn't necessary for loving and taking care of others is look at a list of the top charitable givers/donors in the world and figure out what their religious affiliation is.

Anyway, I agree that when the christian message is distilled down to its root we find Love and Charity. Once I figured that out I was able to drop all the nonsense that went along with it.

If you are living a life of love then more power to you. If there is a God I think that will carry a lot more weight at the end of the day than your religious affiliation or lack thereof.

And I think Christianity scores pretty well historically if we are counting charitable works. Only in the 20th century with the rise of the welfare state (and the modern tax code) has secular charity rivaled Christian charity. The modern scale and emphasis on charitable works has mostly Christian roots (yes I know that other societies have practiced different forms of charity, hence the 'scale and emphasis' part).