Peterson at it again, blasting away in the comments

[_Buffalo]

Yes, this seems to be the de-evolutionary process for many would-be defenders. They stop defending with arguments and start whining/trying to derail threads. I can sort of understand that - it's tough to defend Mormonism based on facts or logic.

Every once in a while I see some leaps forward here. I really do. I think if you guys would acknowledge that the whining and derailing is the very tone of this place, we'd be getting somewhere realy fast. I mean that. You acknowledge this very thread was created to do that which you complain LDS do. yet you wish to hold it all against defenders, attempting to paint it as an inherent fault among defenders (i"m sure because it makes you feel better to see it that way). But you fail to realize that the reason LDS tend to address the tone, the whiney hostile atmosphere of this place, is because its near impossible to navigate through the criticisms without having to wade through the much more prominent and much more direct complaining.

its a shame you guys are so blinded.

It's not the tone of this place. It's the exception, not the rule. I'd submit that you're the biggest source of posts with a whining tone.

Again, you need to learn to discern criticism from mere complaint.

[_stemelbow]

It's not the tone of this place. It's the exception, not the rule. I'd submit that you're the biggest source of posts with a whining tone.

Again, you need to learn to discern criticism from mere complaint.

I guess i can't convince ya of that which you don't want to see in a few short months. I can keep trying though.

[_Buffalo]

It's not the tone of this place. It's the exception, not the rule. I'd submit that you're the biggest source of posts with a whining tone.

Again, you need to learn to discern criticism from mere complaint.

I guess i can't convince ya of that which you don't want to see in a few short months. I can keep trying though.

Tell you what Stem, this week, keep count of every post where someone makes a statement of unhappiness about something without any sort of accompanying argument, and save the links to each post.

We'll count them up at the end of the week and compare them with the total post count.

Examples of complaints/whining:

"Mormons are douchebags! (full stop)"

"DCP is a chicken! (full stop)"

"This board is full of whiners! (full stop)"


Examples of criticism:

It really is fascinating that apologists claim all the troublesome questions have been answered.

They most certainly HAVE NOT been answered. They may have been addresses (quite poorly, in my opinion), but not answered.

As I said over there, "we just haven't found the horse bones yet" doesn't hold as much weight to the general population as the apologists think it should.

(Raising my hand from the back the lecture hall.)

What keeps the Maxwell Institute crowd from officially proposing the events of the Book of Mormon occurred on another Earth in a parallel dimension…long long ago in a galaxy far far away?

A Book of Mormon on a parallel earth would explain why we’ve found no archeological evidence: we’re searching in the wrong parallel dimension.

If a science fiction approach can work for the Scientologists, then why not for the Mormons?

[/sarcasm off]

Examples of statements that are neither criticism nor complaints:

Stem, can you quote some stuff that's been published that reflects this style of apologetic?

Thanks in advance...

I'm sure not everyone representing the old guard can admit that they've lost. But this edition of the Review has settled the matter.

The old guard doesn't get much older than Packer.

Which old guard is the real old guard?

[_Themis]

I'm amazed you're complaining about my approach when the common approach here is as the OP--complain about an LDS person or defender in a whiney way. When I point that out you guys complain about me.

I wasn't aware that it is complaining to suggest that maybe you should find a better approach. Simon was a major whiner and complainer, yet it accomplished nothing. I would think you would want to follow people like Nevo who tends to only involve himself in substantive threads with substantive posts.

Why not acknowledge the source of the problem? Are you all that quick to view things through your own specialized pair of glasses?

And what is the problem, and how would one go about fixing it? Why whine about people talking about Dan or Kevin Graham in negative ways, when we know it won't stop. If you think they are wrong then show why instead of just whining about it. This is not a complaint, but just a suggestion on how you might find a better approach. :)

[_Infymus]

I'm amazed you're complaining about my approach when the common approach here is as the OP--complain about an LDS person or defender in a whiney way. When I point that out you guys complain about me. Why not acknowledge the source of the problem? Are you all that quick to view things through your own specialized pair of glasses?

I'm neither complaining nor being whiny. I am straight out attacking DCP, as I have always attacked DCP.

DCP is a paid charlatan for the Mormon Corporation. As long as he continues to register on sites in order to sell his brand of snake oil - I will be there to attack him for it.

And you can whine all you want about this. I don't really give a damn and I think over the last five years of my being on MDB, you would probably realize that.

But you and other DCP lapdogs who dance at his heels will continue to do so, whatever Steme. Get the last word in, do what you need to do to make yourself feel better. In the end it, the kingpin of Mormon apologetics is once again at work on outside forums/blogs spouting off Mormonism, misleading people about Mormonism, directing people to Mormon websites in the hopes that he can try and convert them to a cult that is so easily, easily dismissed.

He revels in this, he loves this, this is what makes him tick. He has a perverse love of the attention he gets from this. If there was anything that would make a fat bald Mormon from Provo have 15 minutes of fame, well, that man has found it. He knows he'll never be GA material and this is as close as he can get to it.

So fine, Steme, you crack me up. Defend him. All you end up doing is exactly what you accuse me of - being a whiny complainer.

[_Infymus]

The comments on this are great about DCP's "MST":

The list gets cut in half if you remove everyone who's job depends on having a testimony (i.e. employees of BYU). The list is cut further if you exclude anyone who wouldn't know an ancient text or consistent theology from a hole in the ground (what does a degree in "Business, Management and Accounting­" have to do with religion, theology, Biblical studies, history or philosophy­?).

And this is the absolute truth. But does DCP want anyone to know this? No. Does DCP disclose in his post anywhere that he is: A member of the SCMC? That he is an employee of BYU - a Mormon Church owned school? That he is paid by the Mormon Church to do apologetics? No.

Tsk. Typical DCP and MST so-called "scholars".

[_Simon Belmont]

Oh good, another DCP thread. We surely don't have enough of those.

Creeeeeeeepy!

Edit: I just looked at the comments. DCP has made exactly three on that story. That's 3/376, or .0079 of all posts. He sure is "blasting away" Infymus!

[_stemelbow]

Infymus, Buffalo, Themis,

I'd have to classify you fellas as being obtuse. I mean no offense of course, but I believe the issue is quite clearly explained.

Buffalo, Themis,

Its just plain odd that you guys would concern yourself with my approach when all I am really doing is joining in the complaining atmosphere that dominates this place. If you disagree with my characterization of the dominating atmosphere, then cool. But to be clear I only see that as what is obtuse. How can you miss it unless of course you are steeped in the atmosphere, willing to close your eyes and ears at certain things only willing to see things as they fit your own perception. In truth, really, the main thrust of this place is to complain about posters at MDD (notice the stickied thread at the top), complain about DCP, Will Schryver, Midgely and many others who you guys bitterly call mopologists. Even anything categorically considered substantive around here normally carries with it tons of hostile personal venom. I know you guys would never admit it--would never suggest that most of the complaints about LDS folks here are hypocritical. But it is what it is. Its a shame you guys want to try and take me to task for pointing these things out. The good thing, productive thing to do would be to acknowledge this stuff--avoid it (kinda like not complaining about Simon randomly in responses to me). Ah well. I expect better of you two and many more here. Is it going to get better? Don't know.

Infymus, I've seen your posts and your site and your whole approach is nothing but a big old hypocritical sham. Months ago when I pointed out errors on your site you pretended the quotes I offered weren't even on the site. When I see your threads like this, I wonder what is going on in your head. Do you not realize that what you have against DCP is that which you complain about regarding him (which complaint, i think, many would acknowledged is at the very least way over-played)?

Ah well.

[_Themis]

Infymus, Buffalo, Themis,

I'd have to classify you fellas as being obtuse. I mean no offense of course, but I believe the issue is quite clearly explained.

Buffalo, Themis,

Its just plain odd that you guys would concern yourself with my approach when all I am really doing is joining in the complaining atmosphere that dominates this place. If you disagree with my characterization of the dominating atmosphere, then cool. But to be clear I only see that as what is obtuse. How can you miss it unless of course you are steeped in the atmosphere, willing to close your eyes and ears at certain things only willing to see things as they fit your own perception. In truth, really, the main thrust of this place is to complain about posters at MDD (notice the stickied thread at the top), complain about DCP, Will Schryver, Midgely and many others who you guys bitterly call mopologists. Even anything categorically considered substantive around here normally carries with it tons of hostile personal venom. I know you guys would never admit it--would never suggest that most of the complaints about LDS folks here are hypocritical. But it is what it is. Its a shame you guys want to try and take me to task for pointing these things out. The good thing, productive thing to do would be to acknowledge this stuff--avoid it (kinda like not complaining about Simon randomly in responses to me). Ah well. I expect better of you two and many more here. Is it going to get better? Don't know.

Infymus, I've seen your posts and your site and your whole approach is nothing but a big old hypocritical sham. Months ago when I pointed out errors on your site you pretended the quotes I offered weren't even on the site. When I see your threads like this, I wonder what is going on in your head. Do you not realize that what you have against DCP is that which you complain about regarding him (which complaint, i think, many would acknowledged is at the very least way over-played)?

Ah well.

I wasn't aware that it is complaining to suggest that maybe you should find a better approach. Simon was a major whiner and complainer, yet it accomplished nothing. I would think you would want to follow people like Nevo who tends to only involve himself in substantive threads with substantive posts.

And what is the problem, and how would one go about fixing it? Why whine about people talking about Dan or Kevin Graham in negative ways, when we know it won't stop. If you think they are wrong then show why instead of just whining about it. This is not a complaint, but just a suggestion on how you might find a better approach. :)

I have only tried to help you realize your own approach is whining and complaining. I hardly think it is going to be effective. You need to be less hypocritical and provide substantive reasons why some who complain or attack Dan are wrong. This is why you are looking like Simon these days who is now going after jon without any substance.

There is a lot of criticizing going on both sides, but I expect you can't see that very well. Some of that criticism is valid and others are not. There is to much on both sides for me to waste time dealing with most of it. I have a number of times disagreed with some criticism, and explained why I thought it was wrong. Now I may not be perfect and could have done so better, but I have seen some believers who disagree in such ways as to maintain positive feelings between parties, and have much more success. You might try this more.

[_Buffalo]

Infymus, Buffalo, Themis,

I'd have to classify you fellas as being obtuse. I mean no offense of course, but I believe the issue is quite clearly explained.

Buffalo, Themis,

Its just plain odd that you guys would concern yourself with my approach when all I am really doing is joining in the complaining atmosphere that dominates this place. If you disagree with my characterization of the dominating atmosphere, then cool. But to be clear I only see that as what is obtuse. How can you miss it unless of course you are steeped in the atmosphere, willing to close your eyes and ears at certain things only willing to see things as they fit your own perception. In truth, really, the main thrust of this place is to complain about posters at MDD (notice the stickied thread at the top), complain about DCP, Will Schryver, Midgely and many others who you guys bitterly call mopologists. Even anything categorically considered substantive around here normally carries with it tons of hostile personal venom. I know you guys would never admit it--would never suggest that most of the complaints about LDS folks here are hypocritical. But it is what it is. Its a shame you guys want to try and take me to task for pointing these things out. The good thing, productive thing to do would be to acknowledge this stuff--avoid it (kinda like not complaining about Simon randomly in responses to me). Ah well. I expect better of you two and many more here. Is it going to get better? Don't know.

Infymus, I've seen your posts and your site and your whole approach is nothing but a big old hypocritical sham. Months ago when I pointed out errors on your site you pretended the quotes I offered weren't even on the site. When I see your threads like this, I wonder what is going on in your head. Do you not realize that what you have against DCP is that which you complain about regarding him (which complaint, i think, many would acknowledged is at the very least way over-played)?

Ah well.

Maybe it would help if you could share with us what you mean by "whining" and "complaining".

Do you see any difference between those terms and "criticizing" and "attacking"?