Buffalo wrote:Kimball believed that we must literally suffer for our sins. It went beyond remorse, as you can see in his quote. You can't just be suffering enough to cry. More pain is needed.
Have you read the Miracle of Forgiveness?
He didn't say that. What suffering do you think he had in mind? Do you think he really meant something other than remorse? what suffering would that be?
Man, you're going to make me go look that up in context, aren't you?
Yes, he did say that. Go read it again.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.
just me wrote:The juxtoposition of these two quotes is truly jaw-dropping.
"Repentance means suffering. If a person hasn’t suffered, he hasn’t repented”
"For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;"
To be fair, D&C is not suggesting that people who do something bad won't feel remorse, which if ya think about it is or can be suffering. it seems like two different types of suffering can be thought of here. Jesus suffered in a way we can't comprehend.
To be fair, when religious teachings use the word suffer together with repentence they should be consistant with what they mean.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Buffalo wrote:Yes, he did say that. Go read it again.
Look he says suffering, of course. feeling remorse entails suffering, I believe is what he's saying. And remorse may often be more than putting some tears in your eyes or praying a few times.
I may have to go with the, I can go along with the general idea of what he seems to be making even if I disagree a bit with the details.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
just me wrote:To be fair, when religious teachings use the word suffer together with repentence they should be consistant with what they mean.
That would be fair. Too bad Kimball isn't around to make that point to him. Perhaps he would have revised his wording on further recollection.
To be fair, we have to go based on what Kimball wrote, not what he MIGHT have written. As he wrote it, his statement seems in direct opposition to the stated words of JC, whom the members of the Mormon church profess to follow.
On another note, this really is one of the most pernicious doctrines of the church -- the idea that someone can't just change their lives but they have to go through a "personal Gethsemane" (not sure which one of the GAs used this cute phrase) before God will forgive you. How absolutely demeaning to the idea of love! Even if I was not an atheist, I would be incensed by this idea.
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
To be fair, we have to go based on what Kimball wrote, not what he MIGHT have written. As he wrote it, his statement seems in direct opposition to the stated words of JC, whom the members of the Mormon church profess to follow.
Actually, if you want to be fair, you'll read the rest of the lesson which Buffalo in the OP failed to mention. It goes on to say that the guilt one feels for sin counts for that suffering. And when you think about it, where is the impetus to repent if one does not feel guilty? So the bottom line is that in order for one to repent, one must feel guilt and that automatically means one is suffering in that case. Doesn't seem to be any contradiction between the manual and the scriptures after all.
The title for this thread is asinine and inappropriate for this section of the forum. And to address the issue, President Kimball is not using the word "suffer" in the same sense as the Lord does in D&C. Christ died so that we do not have to suffer -- because of Christ, we do not have to pay the debt in order to satisfy the demands of justice. But President Kimball rightly points out that in order to take advantage of the Lord's sacrifice, we must sincerely repent, and in order to have sincerely repented we must feel some sort of pain, loss, or guilt -- some sort of "suffering" -- and this penance will enable us to avoid the same sort of justice-satisfying "suffering" that the Lord endured.
Were one to read President Kimball's teachings as a whole, with special attention on The Miracle of Forgiveness, one might understand more fully his actual teachings regarding repentance and forgiveness, which were certainly not in conflict with the Standard Works.
"I'd say Joseph, that your anger levels are off the charts. What you are, Joseph, is a bully." - Gadianton "Antley's anger is approaching...levels of volcanic hatred." - Scratch