Spencer W. Kimball: Sadist, Self-Flagellator, Anti-Christ

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

The title is fine.

[_RayAgostini]

The title is fine.

Based, of course, on an objective assessment of the life of Spencer W. Kimball. Your judgement reflects more on you than SWK.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

The title is fine.

Based, of course, on an objective assessment of the life of Spencer W. Kimball. Your judgement reflects more on you than SWK.

Explain.

[_Ren]

I've split the thread where it gets overly personal between posters here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20488

Ren

[_Ren]

The title of your thread is extremely offensive.

The title for this thread is asinine and inappropriate for this section of the forum.

If a TBM created a thread on this forum called "Homosexuality - an abomination...", I think it would probably stay in place.
So I think this thread title will probably stay too. (Unless I'm over-ruled!)

Whether either thread title is 'offensive' is for individuals to decide.

[_Buffalo]

Yes, he did say that. Go read it again.

Look he says suffering, of course. feeling remorse entails suffering, I believe is what he's saying. And remorse may often be more than putting some tears in your eyes or praying a few times.

I may have to go with the, I can go along with the general idea of what he seems to be making even if I disagree a bit with the details.

Have you read The Miracle of Forgiveness, Stem? His idea of appropriate self-flagellation amounts to self-atonement for sins.

[_Buffalo]

To be fair, when religious teachings use the word suffer together with repentence they should be consistant with what they mean.

That would be fair. Too bad Kimball isn't around to make that point to him. Perhaps he would have revised his wording on further recollection.

I'm sure he would, now, after having suffered for his heresy in hell for several decades now. ;)

[_Buffalo]

The title for this thread is asinine and inappropriate for this section of the forum. And to address the issue, President Kimball is not using the word "suffer" in the same sense as the Lord does in D&C. Christ died so that we do not have to suffer -- because of Christ, we do not have to pay the debt in order to satisfy the demands of justice. But President Kimball rightly points out that in order to take advantage of the Lord's sacrifice, we must sincerely repent, and in order to have sincerely repented we must feel some sort of pain, loss, or guilt -- some sort of "suffering" -- and this penance will enable us to avoid the same sort of justice-satisfying "suffering" that the Lord endured.

Were one to read President Kimball's teachings as a whole, with special attention on The Miracle of Forgiveness, one might understand more fully his actual teachings regarding repentance and forgiveness, which were certainly not in conflict with the Standard Works.

President Kimball taught in The Miracle of Forgiveness that we must suffer for our own sins. Then, when we've atoned for our own sins for suffering, Jesus can grant forgiveness. But even then, our souls remain marred. Jesus' atonement, according to SWK, is very weak indeed.

For this heresy, I have had personal revelation that even now he is being flogged daily with a cat-o-nine tails in hell by the demon Asmodeus.

[_stemelbow]

Have you read The Miracle of Forgiveness, Stem? His idea of appropriate self-flagellation amounts to self-atonement for sins.

Yes I've read it and yes I think overall its overdone. It hink to categorize it as saying it amounts to self-atonement for sins is also over-doing it. So, we're at a bit of an impasse it seems.

[_stemelbow]

Even if I was not an atheist, I would be incensed by this idea.

it seems apparent you are incensed by the idea of Mormonism and will therefore take any perceived misconception or weirdness as justification for your hostility.

I don't think its fair to take these quotes without providing context. That's why I said what I did. I don't think you understand Kimball's point just like Buffalo doesn't seem to.