Spencer W. Kimball: Sadist, Self-Flagellator, Anti-Christ

[_stemelbow]

The title of the thread is meant to offend, of course. its not meant to be something to generate considerate talk amongst us. Its to attack certain LDS folks of course.

But we all remember what BY said about being offended.

[_jon]

The title of the thread is meant to offend, of course. its not meant to be something to generate considerate talk amongst us. Its to attack certain LDS folks of course.

But we all remember what BY said about being offended.

What a shame you don't 'remember' what BY said about Adam, God and the Negro...

[_Buffalo]

Have you read The Miracle of Forgiveness, Stem? His idea of appropriate self-flagellation amounts to self-atonement for sins.

Yes I've read it and yes I think overall its overdone. It hink to categorize it as saying it amounts to self-atonement for sins is also over-doing it. So, we're at a bit of an impasse it seems.

It does amount to self-atonement. In SWKs eyes, self-flagellation is much more central to the process than is Jesus Christ.

On a related note, does Stephen E. Robinson's Believing Christ mark moment in Mormon history where the Christian idea of grace was first introduced? One of the points Robinson makes is that Mormons tend not to believe in Jesus' ability to forgive them. They tend to be overly self-critical and despair at any imperfection. There's a reason for that - the failure of LDS leadership to teach them about Jesus. Too bad it took an unordained LDS Scholar to correct this grave theological error. None of the Apostles or Prophets seemed to notice the problem.

[_stemelbow]

It does amount to self-atonement. In SWKs eyes, self-flagellation is much more central to the process than is Jesus Christ.

On a related note, does Stephen E. Robinson's Believing Christ mark moment in Mormon history where the Christian idea of grace was first introduced? One of the points Robinson makes is that Mormons tend not to believe in Jesus' ability to forgive them. They tend to be overly self-critical and despair at any imperfection. There's a reason for that - the failure of LDS leadership to teach them about Jesus. Too bad it took an unordained LDS Scholar to correct this grave theological error. None of the Apostles or Prophets seemed to notice the problem.

Amongst LDS grace was first introduced back in Joseph Smith' day, by Joseph Smith himself. I don't' think you know what you're talking about again, Buffalo. I suppose its easy to vaguely draw up some caricatures about what you perceive and pass it off as factual around these parts.

Have fun. I think you're missing the boat.

[_Buffalo]

Even if I was not an atheist, I would be incensed by this idea.

it seems apparent you are incensed by the idea of Mormonism and will therefore take any perceived misconception or weirdness as justification for your hostility.

I don't think its fair to take these quotes without providing context. That's why I said what I did. I don't think you understand Kimball's point just like Buffalo doesn't seem to.

Stem, the reason he would be incensed is because it's such a psychologically damaging idea. Spencer W. Kimball most likely suffering from some sort of mental illness. Normally that only harms a few people, but as president of a large church, Kimball spread his unhealthy ideas to millions.

I think it's you who don't understand Kimball's point. You're trying to apologize for him and minimize what he actually said to make him look better. You're not trying to understand what he was actually saying.

[_Buffalo]

It does amount to self-atonement. In SWKs eyes, self-flagellation is much more central to the process than is Jesus Christ.

On a related note, does Stephen E. Robinson's Believing Christ mark moment in Mormon history where the Christian idea of grace was first introduced? One of the points Robinson makes is that Mormons tend not to believe in Jesus' ability to forgive them. They tend to be overly self-critical and despair at any imperfection. There's a reason for that - the failure of LDS leadership to teach them about Jesus. Too bad it took an unordained LDS Scholar to correct this grave theological error. None of the Apostles or Prophets seemed to notice the problem.

Amongst LDS grace was first introduced back in Joseph Smith' day, by Joseph Smith himself. I don't' think you know what you're talking about again, Buffalo. I suppose its easy to vaguely draw up some caricatures about what you perceive and pass it off as factual around these parts.

Have fun. I think you're missing the boat.

Joseph Smith didn't really believe in grace, Stem. From Joseph Smith up until believing Christ, it was works, works, works and more works. If you can find something even vaguely resembling grace in any GA discourse pre-Believing Christ, I'd love to read it.

"High on the mountain top,
A banner is unfurled.
Ye nations now look up;
It waves to all the world."
In Deseret's sweet, peaceful land-
On Zion's mount behold it stand!

For God remembers still
His promise made of old
That He on Zion's hill
Truth's standard would unfold!
Her light should there attract the gaze
Of all the world in latter days.

His house shall there be reared
His glory to display
And people shall be heard
In distant lands to say
We'll now go up and serve the Lord,
Obey His truth, and learn His word.

For there we shall be taught
The law that will go forth,
With truth and wisdom fraught
To govern all the earth;
Forever there His ways we'll tread
And save ourselves and all our dead.

Then hail to Deseret!
A refuge for the good,
And safety for the great,
If they but understood.
That God with plagues will shake the world
Till all its thrones shall down be hurled.

In Deseret doth truth
Rear up its royal head;
Though nations may oppose,
Still wider it shall spread;
Yes, truth and justice, love and grace,
In Deseret find ample place,

[_stemelbow]

Stem, the reason he would be incensed is because it's such a psychologically damaging idea. Spencer W. Kimball most likely suffering from some sort of mental illness. Normally that only harms a few people, but as president of a large church, Kimball spread his unhealthy ideas to millions.

And these millions bought into them. To say they are unhealthy would suggest these millions are unhealthy or have something wrong with them. I don't think you have much grounds for this.

I think it's you who don't understand Kimball's point. You're trying to apologize for him and minimize what he actually said to make him look better. You're not trying to understand what he was actually saying.

Nice try, Buffalo. With this type of reasoning, you're not trying to understand him, you're trying to criticize his words and embellish his points to make them come off as different then they were intended. What are we going to do go back and forth quibbling about perspective? If ya want, i guess.

[_stemelbow]

Joseph Smith didn't really believe in grace, Stem. From Joseph Smith up until believing Christ, it was works, works, works and more works. If you can find something even vaguely resembling grace in any GA discourse pre-Believing Christ, I'd love to read it.

What areyou an evangelical contrasting two different topics in hopes to score some points via inuendo? That's weird stuff, Buffalo, coming from you.

Works don't discount grace. Paul made a very nuanced argument, I would say. I don't think he is saying anything near the idea that putting forth effort on our part is not necessary because God will just lift us up via His grace. Oh no. He's also very clear that there are commandments and that we must follow them, in addition to his words on grace. Grace is given always. Grace is not just granted because we try. He'll be gracious to all. He is indeed gracious to all. That He requires things at our hands does not suggest that the works themselves hold some arbitrary power that saves us from death and hell. No, I'd say grace is the very mechanism that saves, but that does not suggest faith and works aren't part of our lives, nor aren't seen by God as useful or necessary.

[_Buffalo]

Stem, the reason he would be incensed is because it's such a psychologically damaging idea. Spencer W. Kimball most likely suffering from some sort of mental illness. Normally that only harms a few people, but as president of a large church, Kimball spread his unhealthy ideas to millions.

And these millions bought into them. To say they are unhealthy would suggest these millions are unhealthy or have something wrong with them. I don't think you have much grounds for this.

Steven E. Robinson thought it was unhealthy. And he was right. And his ideas (which are fairly standard protestant ideas about grace) are slowly becoming more mainstream in the church.

I think it's you who don't understand Kimball's point. You're trying to apologize for him and minimize what he actually said to make him look better. You're not trying to understand what he was actually saying.

Nice try, Buffalo. With this type of reasoning, you're not trying to understand him, you're trying to criticize his words and embellish his points to make them come off as different then they were intended. What are we going to do go back and forth quibbling about perspective? If ya want, i guess.

My point stands just by quoting him verbatum. You're the one who feels the need to reinterpret everything he said to sanitize it.

[_Buffalo]

Joseph Smith didn't really believe in grace, Stem. From Joseph Smith up until believing Christ, it was works, works, works and more works. If you can find something even vaguely resembling grace in any GA discourse pre-Believing Christ, I'd love to read it.

What areyou an evangelical contrasting two different topics in hopes to score some points via inuendo? That's weird stuff, Buffalo, coming from you.

Works don't discount grace. Paul made a very nuanced argument, I would say. I don't think he is saying anything near the idea that putting forth effort on our part is not necessary because God will just lift us up via His grace. Oh no. He's also very clear that there are commandments and that we must follow them, in addition to his words on grace. Grace is given always. Grace is not just granted because we try. He'll be gracious to all. He is indeed gracious to all. That He requires things at our hands does not suggest that the works themselves hold some arbitrary power that saves us from death and hell. No, I'd say grace is the very mechanism that saves, but that does not suggest faith and works aren't part of our lives, nor aren't seen by God as useful or necessary.

You're arguing against a point I never made.

Again, if you can find something even vaguely resembling grace in any GA discourse pre-Believing Christ, I'd love to read it.