What are we going to do forever?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

You kill yourself. Sartre is right.

V/R
Dr. C

[_keithb]

For us boredom results in the same old same old, every day the same sort of thing... What will make direct interaction with God and his domain not boring?

His love/power/energy running through us.

Ever consider flying to anywhere in the Universe? Ever consider learning every minute detail of something your interested in learning? From History to physics? And not having to deal with Entropy and forgetting what you just learned.

Reconnecting with the creator of all will be anything but boring.

A few issues here.

First off, if you lived an infinite amount of time, then you would have spent infinite amounts of time in some or all parts of the universe (assuming a finite size for the universe). Thus, the idea of "flying anywhere in the universe" as you put it would seem to be not that impressive if you had already spent an infinite amount of time in that part of the universe.

If you were talking about a universe of infinite size or an infinite multi-verse, then you still would have spent an infinite amount of time in some or all parts of the universe/multi-verse in many cases. The only exception that I can think of to this happening is if the sizes (i.e. Lebesgue measure) of the infinite time dimension versus the size of the infinite space dimension were different (with the size of the time dimension have a smaller Lebesgue measure) and you were constantly moving to new parts of the universe (with or without repeated visits to old parts of the universe). In this case, you would actually technically spend zero percent of your time in any one part of the universe, which I find equally disturbing.

Second, the idea of always learning new things has troubled me too. According to Physics, information is ultimately stored as a state of a subsystem or subsystems in the Physical universe and is transmitted via energy (i.e. photons). Therefore, as the amount of information stored in a given subsystem of the universe (let's say God's head) tends to increase, then shouldn't the energy density and the energy expenditure of that system also increase to a point where it's no longer physically possible to pack more energy into the subsystem? In other words, shouldn't there be an upper limit on the amount of things that you can learn, even given an infinite amount of time to learn them?

Let me put this another way. Let's suppose that we have a system composed of N particles in a quantum state defined by the variables a_1, a_2, ... a_n. According to my intuition (which may be off because we are talking about quantum mechanics here), the number of possible quantum states attainable by a particle in the ensemble should be finite. In other words, any one particle in the system should only be able to contain a finite amount of information. With that assumption in place then, as the information contained in the system increases, the number of particles in the system (the ensemble) should also ultimately have to increase as well. Therefore, since the size of the system is finite (i.e. God's head is contained in a finite space), the energy density of the system must also either a) reach a limit where there can be no more information contained in the system or b) continue to increase as more information is pushed into the system.

So, to make a long story short, if you kept trying to learn new things forever, wouldn't you either a) run out of room or b) have your head eventually explode (due to too high of energy density)?

Also note that there is demonstrably an infinite amount of information in the universe, so you can't make the argument that there is an upper limit to the amount of information.

Has anyone else ever thought about this?

[_Wisdom Seeker]

What are we going to do forever?

Well it depends which degree of glory you obtain.

I always assumed that the Celestial kingdom would be like being in a temple. And those who make it there will actually want to spend an eternity closed off from all the ruckus of crashing waves and birds singing. They will enjoy sitting with family members speaking in hushed tones and listening to an organ or possibly a harp gently playing some sort of hymn.

On the other hand, the Telestial kingdom must be a great place. I think Joseph Smith once said that a person would commit suicide to get there if they only knew how great it was. I would guess that in this kingdom there will be all kinds of fun activities to do.

[_asbestosman]

Also note that there is demonstrably an infinite amount of information in the universe,

Is there? I doubt it.

[_keithb]

What are we going to do forever?

Well it depends which degree of glory you obtain.

I always assumed that the Celestial kingdom would be like being in a temple. And those who make it there will actually want to spend an eternity closed off from all the ruckus of crashing waves and birds singing. They will enjoy sitting with family members speaking in hushed tones and listening to an organ or possibly a harp gently playing some sort of hymn.

On the other hand, the Telestial kingdom must be a great place. I think Joseph Smith once said that a person would commit suicide to get there if they only knew how great it was. I would guess that in this kingdom there will be all kinds of fun activities to do.

I think that Satan might be a pretty cool guy to hang out with forever -- all about sex, drug, and rock music. Also, no commitment because people can't be married.

[_asbestosman]

I think that Satan might be a pretty cool guy to hang out with forever -- all about sex, drug, and rock music. Also, no commitment because people can't be married.

Unsubstantiated rumor is that God takes away the fun stuff from bad people. The best you can do is hugging and kissing, but all the resurrected mono viruses will be there with you.

[_Hughes]

For us boredom results in the same old same old, every day the same sort of thing... What will make direct interaction with God and his domain not boring?

His love/power/energy running through us.

Ever consider flying to anywhere in the Universe? Ever consider learning every minute detail of something your interested in learning? From History to physics? And not having to deal with Entropy and forgetting what you just learned.

Reconnecting with the creator of all will be anything but boring.

A few issues here.

First off, if you lived an infinite amount of time, then you would have spent infinite amounts of time in some or all parts of the universe (assuming a finite size for the universe). Thus, the idea of "flying anywhere in the universe" as you put it would seem to be not that impressive if you had already spent an infinite amount of time in that part of the universe.

If you were talking about a universe of infinite size or an infinite multi-verse, then you still would have spent an infinite amount of time in some or all parts of the universe/multi-verse in many cases. The only exception that I can think of to this happening is if the sizes (i.e. Lebesgue measure) of the infinite time dimension versus the size of the infinite space dimension were different (with the size of the time dimension have a smaller Lebesgue measure) and you were constantly moving to new parts of the universe (with or without repeated visits to old parts of the universe). In this case, you would actually technically spend zero percent of your time in any one part of the universe, which I find equally disturbing.

Second, the idea of always learning new things has troubled me too. According to Physics, information is ultimately stored as a state of a subsystem or subsystems in the Physical universe and is transmitted via energy (i.e. photons). Therefore, as the amount of information stored in a given subsystem of the universe (let's say God's head) tends to increase, then shouldn't the energy density and the energy expenditure of that system also increase to a point where it's no longer physically possible to pack more energy into the subsystem? In other words, shouldn't there be an upper limit on the amount of things that you can learn, even given an infinite amount of time to learn them?

Let me put this another way. Let's suppose that we have a system composed of N particles in a quantum state defined by the variables a_1, a_2, ... a_n. According to my intuition (which may be off because we are talking about quantum mechanics here), the number of possible quantum states attainable by a particle in the ensemble should be finite. In other words, any one particle in the system should only be able to contain a finite amount of information. With that assumption in place then, as the information contained in the system increases, the number of particles in the system (the ensemble) should also ultimately have to increase as well. Therefore, since the size of the system is finite (i.e. God's head is contained in a finite space), the energy density of the system must also either a) reach a limit where there can be no more information contained in the system or b) continue to increase as more information is pushed into the system.

So, to make a long story short, if you kept trying to learn new things forever, wouldn't you either a) run out of room or b) have your head eventually explode (due to too high of energy density)?

Also note that there is demonstrably an infinite amount of information in the universe, so you can't make the argument that there is an upper limit to the amount of information.

Has anyone else ever thought about this?

The issues you raise undercut the assumptions of the original post, or so it seems to me.

If we assume that there is a God (infinite in nature) and assume there is a Heaven. The idea that physics will be our limiting factor isn't an issue, since the properties of physics we all use and enjoy here, aren't going to limit us there (I'm not LDS, so maybe LDS do believe that Heaven contains the same physics as here?)

To answer your question more directly. Yes, if was assume that the same physical laws apply to Heaven, as they do here.

Let's imagine a little deeper though. Let's say that not only are we able to explore, but we're able to explore history with the actual characters who made that history. Or learn about the Universe, both as we see it now, and from the prospective of an infinite being/creator, which is nearly impossible for us to imagine now.

[_keithb]

The issues you raise undercut the assumptions of the original post, or so it seems to me.

If we assume that there is a God (infinite in nature) and assume there is a Heaven. The idea that physics will be our limiting factor isn't an issue, since the properties of physics we all use and enjoy here, aren't going to limit us there (I'm not LDS, so maybe LDS do believe that Heaven contains the same physics as here?)

To answer your question more directly. Yes, if was assume that the same physical laws apply to Heaven, as they do here.

Let's imagine a little deeper though. Let's say that not only are we able to explore, but we're able to explore history with the actual characters who made that history. Or learn about the Universe, both as we see it now, and from the prospective of an infinite being/creator, which is nearly impossible for us to imagine now.

This is the problem with discussing these things with theists. When it boils down to it, their belief is based on a series of ad hoc explanations. The problem is that, when one tries to pin them down on the particulars of these explanations, they just make up new explanations in their place -- backed by nothing except their own fertile imagination.

Explain to them that God's head should explode according to the laws of physics? Well, the laws of physics don't apply to god. Explain to them that there are probably no magical elves living in and controlling the sun? Well, they just point out that the elves are MAGICAL! Duh!

Okay, I will concede the point that if, after we die, we are transported to a realm where the laws of physics and mathematics don't apply, then maybe the physiological rules governing our perception of things being boring also don't apply. I have no reason to believe this. There is no evidence for anything existing that isn't governed by the laws of physics, but I will concede that maybe the Christian (or other) god is the exception to this rule, if he or she exists.

Or, maybe it's a set of magical unicorns that poop out ice cream that governs the universe. Or, perhaps it's Imhotep.

[_Hughes]

The issues you raise undercut the assumptions of the original post, or so it seems to me.

If we assume that there is a God (infinite in nature) and assume there is a Heaven. The idea that physics will be our limiting factor isn't an issue, since the properties of physics we all use and enjoy here, aren't going to limit us there (I'm not LDS, so maybe LDS do believe that Heaven contains the same physics as here?)

To answer your question more directly. Yes, if was assume that the same physical laws apply to Heaven, as they do here.

Let's imagine a little deeper though. Let's say that not only are we able to explore, but we're able to explore history with the actual characters who made that history. Or learn about the Universe, both as we see it now, and from the prospective of an infinite being/creator, which is nearly impossible for us to imagine now.

This is the problem with discussing these things with theists. When it boils down to it, their belief is based on a series of ad hoc explanations. The problem is that, when one tries to pin them down on the particulars of these explanations, they just make up new explanations in their place -- backed by nothing except their own fertile imagination.

Explain to them that God's head should explode according to the laws of physics? Well, the laws of physics don't apply to god. Explain to them that there are probably no magical elves living in and controlling the sun? Well, they just point out that the elves are MAGICAL! Duh!

Okay, I will concede the point that if, after we die, we are transported to a realm where the laws of physics and mathematics don't apply, then maybe the physiological rules governing our perception of things being boring also don't apply. I have no reason to believe this. There is no evidence for anything existing that isn't governed by the laws of physics, but I will concede that maybe the Christian (or other) god is the exception to this rule, if he or she exists.

Or, maybe it's a set of magical unicorns that poop out ice cream that governs the universe. Or, perhaps it's Imhotep.

You're right it is a problem.

When you start an thread with... "Have religious people really thought about whether anyone wants to live forever?
[snip]
Similarly, almost all activities would likely get boring if they were repeated infinitely many times."

And I respond with in the context of your parameters (IE living forever in Heaven). And now you are saying it's "a problem discussing these things with theists, and there is no evidence for anything existing that isn't governed by the laws of physics."

Bait and switch?


"Have religious people really thought about whether anyone wants to live forever?"

The answer is, yup... I've thought about it quite abit actually. Not that I would ever think it could be proven using only materialistic tools of science.

[_keithb]

When you start an thread with... "Have religious people really thought about whether anyone wants to live forever?
[snip]
Similarly, almost all activities would likely get boring if they were repeated infinitely many times."

And I respond with in the context of your parameters (IE living forever in Heaven). And now you are saying it's "a problem discussing these things with theists, and there is no evidence for anything existing that isn't governed by the laws of physics."

Bait and switch?



"Have religious people really thought about whether anyone wants to live forever?"

The answer is, yup... I've thought about it quite abit actually. Not that I would ever think it could be proven using only materialistic tools of science.

You just said that God and heaven exist outside of the laws of physics, so I guess I don't know what else to say to you about it. I mean, if we're going to throw science out the window as our a priori assumption, then I guess we could make up just about anything and make it stick.

Honestly, I have no idea what else to say on it if we throw out science. Without science, things like eternity take on a completely different meaning than anything I can understand.

From that point, it would be like debating how many reindeer Santa has in his kennels.