Spencer W. Kimball: Sadist, Self-Flagellator, Anti-Christ

[_stemelbow]

No, that's not accurate at all. You flat out don't believe Mormon doctrine. Not just in this case, of course. What I have stated about self-atonement is the doctrine of the church.

I believe Mormon doctrine, perhaps the book Mormon doctrine has a few things I object to though. I simply think you have misunderstood LDS teaching if you disagree. What you stated about self-atonement is not the doctrine of the Church in my estimation.

[_Buffalo]

I think it's likely that SWK was secretly gay and dealt with a lot of self-loathing issues (as most gay people burdened with Mormon doctrine do). That might have been the source of his self-flagellation fetish.

I have also suspected this for several years. The whole "masturbation leads to homosexuality" thing is so crazy and illogical that it sounds like someone was blaming his secret, unresolved, embarrassing feelings on what he did with his "alone time" in his youth. I mean, doesn't it sound like kid's logic, kind of like "kissing leads to cooties"?

But here's the thing... if repentance requires deep suffering, than I think just being a Mormon and minimally attending their meetings should qualify as all the suffering a person needs to be a saint. On the suffering criterion alone, the LDS should be ushered straight into the Celestial Kingdom upon death.

What constitutes greater suffering than living an LDS life? (I suppose they could go with country music for the hymns just to amp up the torture... *shudder*)

Yes, there's that. He also had a rep for being very touchy feelie - including kissing men by way of greeting, If I recall correctly. He affectionately referred to D. Michael Quinn as "my Mexican."

[_Buffalo]

No, that's not accurate at all. You flat out don't believe Mormon doctrine. Not just in this case, of course. What I have stated about self-atonement is the doctrine of the church.

I believe Mormon doctrine, perhaps the book Mormon doctrine has a few things I object to though. I simply think you have misunderstood LDS teaching if you disagree. What you stated about self-atonement is not the doctrine of the Church in my estimation.

I'm not surprised you don't believe it Stem. While you believe the church is true, you hold some pretty heretical beliefs.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:16-19
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.

Spirit Prison

The Apostle Peter referred to the spirit world as a prison, which it is for some (see 1 Peter 3:18–20). In the spirit prison are the spirits of those who have not yet received the gospel of Jesus Christ. These spirits have agency and may be enticed by both good and evil. If they accept the gospel and the ordinances performed for them in the temples, they may prepare themselves to leave the spirit prison and dwell in paradise.

Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit” (D&C 19:16–18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.

The hell in the spirit world will not continue forever. Even the spirits who have committed the greatest sins will have suffered sufficiently by the end of the Millennium (see Acts 2:25–27). They will then be resurrected.

- Gospel Principles manual

http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

[_Jason Bourne]

Stem

Here are some quotes from MoF.

Tell me if you agree or disagree:

"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (p. 208)

Do you believe that you can be perfect in order to be to be exalted? What does Kimball mean? Does he mean prefect with Jesus and because of Jesus? Do you believe you need to live all the commandment to guarantee forgiveness? If Kimball had said you cannot be perfect without the perfecting partnership with Jesus Christ that comes from faith in Him I think that would be much better. Nobody can keep all the commandments.

"In the context of the spirit of forgiveness, one good brother asked me, "Yes, that is what ought to be done, but how do you do it? Doesn't that take a superman?' 'Yes,' I said, 'but we are commanded to be supermen. Said the Lord, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.' (Matt. 5:48.) We are gods in embryo, and the Lord demands perfection of us.'" (p. 286)

How about this?

"The reason is forthrightly stated by Nephi-” '. . . There cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God . . .' (1 Ne. 15:34.) And again, '. . . no unclean thing can dwell with God . . .' (1 Ne. 10:21.) To the prophets the term unclean in this context means what it means to God. To man the word may be relative in meaning-”one minute speck of dirt does not make a white shirt or dress unclean, for example. But to God who is perfection, cleanliness means moral and personal cleanliness. Less than that is, in one degree or another, uncleanliness and hence cannot dwell with God." (p. 19)[1]

I understand that if I am in covenant relationship with Christ that covers my uncleanliness from my constant sins. Kimball makes it sound like I have to do it on my own.

"That is why we should not wait for the life beyond but should abandon evil habits and weaknesses while in the flesh on the earth. Elder Melvin J. Ballard pinpointed this problem: A man may receive the priesthood and all its privileges and blessings, but until he learns to overcome the flesh, his temper, his tongue, his disposition to indulge in the things God has forbidden, he cannot come into the celestial kingdom of God-he must overcome either in this life or in the life to come. But this life is the time in which men are to repent. Do not let any of us imagine that we can go down to the grave not having overcome the corruptions of the flesh and then lose in the grave all our sins and evil tendencies. They will be with us. They will be with the spirit when separated from the body. Clearly it is difficult to repent in the spirit world of sins involving physical habits and actions. There one has spirit and mind but not the physical power to overcome a physical habit. He can desire to change his life, but how can he overcome the lusts of the flesh unless he has flesh to control and transform? How can he overcome the tobacco or the drink habit in the spirit world where there is no liquor nor tobacco and no flesh to crave it? Similarly with other sins involving lack of control over the body." (p. 163)

Who even makes it to the grave without some sinful behavior or act? This is enough to drive anyone batty.

"One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (pp. 206-207)

"Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works-many works-”and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and 'a broken heart and a contrite spirit'™ It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes" (pp. 324-325).

Wow! No wonder so many Mormon stress about this.

[_selek]

http://seminary.LDS.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-resource-manual/dc-trm-2-1-40-dc19.asp

“We must remember that repentance is more than just saying, ‘I am sorry.’ It is more than tears in one’s eyes. It is more than a half a dozen prayers. Repentance means suffering. If a person hasn’t suffered, he hasn’t repented” ( The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 88, 99).

ALERT! ALERT! Speaking as a man! Speaking as a man! ALERT! ALERT!

Kimball was a sadistic bastard. I read his so-called "Miracle of Forgiveness" as a TBM and won't begin to describe the anxiety and self-loathing it caused in me, personally. The pages of his wretched book are only good for wiping one's arse as far as I'm concerend.

[_Spurven Ten Sing]

http://seminary.LDS.org/manuals/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-resource-manual/dc-trm-2-1-40-dc19.asp

“We must remember that repentance is more than just saying, ‘I am sorry.’ It is more than tears in one’s eyes. It is more than a half a dozen prayers. Repentance means suffering. If a person hasn’t suffered, he hasn’t repented” ( The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 88, 99).

ALERT! ALERT! Speaking as a man! Speaking as a man! ALERT! ALERT!

Kimball was a sadistic bastard. I read his so-called "Miracle of Forgiveness" as a TBM and won't begin to describe the anxiety and self-loathing it caused in me, personally. The pages of his wretched book are only good for wiping one's arse as far as I'm concerend.

Except it would just cause suffering.

[_Darth J]

We're talking about the Spencer W. Kimball who taught that American Indian kids raised by Mormons literally turned Caucasian, right?

The same Spencer W. Kimball who asserted that masturbation is the proximate cause of homosexuality?

The same Spencer W. Kimball who pretty clearly intimated in The Miracle of Forgiveness that Bigfoot is Cain?*

Would this be a good time to ask why anyone should pay any more attention to Spencer W. Kimball's crazy insane babbling than they would the ravings of a crazy street preacher, or would that be derailing the thread?


*How did Cain survive the global flood, since he wasn't on Noah's ark?

[_Chap]

.....

The same Spencer W. Kimball who pretty clearly intimated in The Miracle of Forgiveness that Bigfoot is Cain?*

Would this be a good time to ask why anyone should pay any more attention to Spencer W. Kimball's bat**** insane babbling than they would the ravings of a crazy street preacher, or would that be derailing the thread?


*How did Cain survive the global flood, since he wasn't on Noah's ark?

Good Gracious - here it is on MormonWiki:

A notable oddity from pp. 127-128 [of the Miracle of Forgiveness]:

On the sad character Cain, an interesting story comes to us from Lycurgus A. Wilson's book on the life of David W. Patten. From the book I quote an extract from a letter by Abraham O. Smoot giving his recollection of David Patten's account of meeting "a very remarkable person who had represented himself as being Cain."

As I was riding along the road on my mule I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me ... . His head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle. He wore no clothing, but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelt and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die, and his mission was to destroy the souls of men. About the time he expressed himself thus, I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by virtue of the Holy Priesthood, and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight..."

Kimball was just speaking as a credulous and superstitious person when he retailed this ridiculous story, I suppose. Well, it can happen.

[_Buffalo]

We're talking about the Spencer W. Kimball who taught that American Indian kids raised by Mormons literally turned Caucasian, right?

The same Spencer W. Kimball who asserted that masturbation is the proximate cause of homosexuality?

The same Spencer W. Kimball who pretty clearly intimated in The Miracle of Forgiveness that Bigfoot is Cain?*

Would this be a good time to ask why anyone should pay any more attention to Spencer W. Kimball's bat**** insane babbling than they would the ravings of a crazy street preacher, or would that be derailing the thread?


*How did Cain survive the global flood, since he wasn't on Noah's ark?

The Elder Elders really need to figure out some merit-based selection process, instead of the current gerontocracy. They've had too many crazy crazy morons as presidents of the church.

[_DarkHelmet]

We're talking about the Spencer W. Kimball who taught that American Indian kids raised by Mormons literally turned Caucasian, right?

This is the miracle of the Book of Mormon. Can you name any other church that turns dark skinned people white? What's that? No answer? I thought so.

The same Spencer W. Kimball who asserted that masturbation is the proximate cause of homosexuality?

95% of gay men masturbated in their youth. Looks like another bullseye for the K man.

The same Spencer W. Kimball who pretty clearly intimated in The Miracle of Forgiveness that Bigfoot is Cain?*

Until Bigfoot is finally captured, we won't know for sure. The jury is still out.

*How did Cain survive the global flood, since he wasn't on Noah's ark?

Does the Bible say anything about Cain being a bad swimmer? It seems to me he would be a good swimmer. Another win for the K man.