Spencer W. Kimball: Sadist, Self-Flagellator, Anti-Christ

[_Darth J]

I am forced to concede that I cannot refute Dark Helmet's incisive reasoning.

[_keithb]

Be a little patient with me please. I think its more complex than saying "he meant what he wrote". People can take what one writes and see a different meaning than intended any time. Thus, its more than just thinking "he meant what he wrote". on Top of that, on the first page, i believe, a piece of information was added to provide a little more context demonstrating the intended meaning was different then what was initially broadcasted.

Let me try this again.

If you wrote a threatening letter to the President of the United States, you would almost certainly be arrested for it. It probably wouldn't matter much what the context of the letter was: they would arrest you based on the text of the letter itself.

Similarly, I am condemning SWK based on the plain text of what he wrote in the MoF. I don't need context. Even if there was some context presented, I could point back to the original words and judge them on their own merit. Period. Besides which, you have yet to demonstrate any other context for what he wrote other than one invented in your own fertile imagination. I am reasonably sure that many TBMs would accuse you of twisting his words if you were to try and present context for his statements and would likely call you to repentance.

If he meant something else, he should have written something else instead. It shouldn't be that hard for a supposed prophet of God to get it right the first time. If nothing else, couldn't he have had JC proofread his rough draft during one of their weekly lunches together in the Salt Lake temple?

[_stemelbow]

Hey Keithb.

All i can say is, it seemed people misunderstood him. Everyone suffers when they do something they regret, at least to some extent. I think this is another case of making mountains out of molehills again. So I say so. other than that. Oh well. I'm not quite like Kimball in regards to repentance. I think I get the idea he's presenting and I can go with that--we ought to sincerely, genuinely feel bad for hurting others or sinning.

[_Buffalo]

Hey Keithb.

All i can say is, it seemed people misunderstood him. Everyone suffers when they do something they regret, at least to some extent. I think this is another case of making mountains out of molehills again. So I say so. other than that. Oh well. I'm not quite like Kimball in regards to repentance. I think I get the idea he's presenting and I can go with that--we ought to sincerely, genuinely feel bad for hurting others or sinning.

Based on what? So far, it seems like you're the one who is misunderstanding him. You have yet to offer anything in the way of context from Kimball that changes anything in the OP.

[_Yoda]

Hey Keithb.

All i can say is, it seemed people misunderstood him. Everyone suffers when they do something they regret, at least to some extent. I think this is another case of making mountains out of molehills again. So I say so. other than that. Oh well. I'm not quite like Kimball in regards to repentance. I think I get the idea he's presenting and I can go with that--we ought to sincerely, genuinely feel bad for hurting others or sinning.

Based on what? So far, it seems like you're the one who is misunderstanding him. You have yet to offer anything in the way of context from Kimball that changes anything in the OP.

Agreed.

Stem, Jason's post can give you some really good perspective. Jason and I are about the same age. We both grew up during President Kimball's term as prophet.

I loved President Kimball, and thought he was a good man. However, I, like Jason, was very confused and had feelings of hopelessness when it came to the repentance process, based on what he wrote in "Miracle of Forgiveness". He stated plainly that the suffering went beyond simple remorse, and that it could take years, even centuries before we would know whether or not the Lord truly forgave us of a sin. Also, perfection was expected.....Not striving for perfection, but perfection, itself.

Understand that I grew up a faithful Latter-Day Saint. I specifically remember envying non-members. It honestly seemed to me like they had the "best of both worlds". Since they did not have the "blessing"/burden of the gospel, they were ignorant of many of their sins. They would be taught the gospel in the Millenium, when Christ was reining personally upon the earth! How easy would it be to accept the gospel then? Their sins would automatically be forgiven, washed away with baptism, and then they would be eligible for the Celestial Kingdom because they would then be perfect! I, on the other hand, having been "blessed" with the gospel in this life, could die in my sins if I'm not perfect, and be separated forever from my family.

[_Buffalo]

Agreed.

Stem, Jason's post can give you some really good perspective. Jason and I are about the same age. We both grew up during President Kimball's term as prophet.

I loved President Kimball, and thought he was a good man. However, I, like Jason, was very confused and had feelings of hopelessness when it came to the repentance process, based on what he wrote in "Miracle of Forgiveness". He stated plainly that the suffering went beyond simple remorse, and that it could take years, even centuries before we would know whether or not the Lord truly forgave us of a sin. Also, perfection was expected.....Not striving for perfection, but perfection, itself.

Understand that I grew up a faithful Latter-Day Saint. I specifically remember envying non-members. It honestly seemed to me like they had the "best of both worlds". Since they did not have the "blessing"/burden of the gospel, they were ignorant of many of their sins. They would be taught the gospel in the Millenium, when Christ was reining personally upon the earth! How easy would it be to accept the gospel then? Their sins would automatically be forgiven, washed away with baptism, and then they would be eligible for the Celestial Kingdom because they would then be perfect! I, on the other hand, having been "blessed" with the gospel in this life, could die in my sins if I'm not perfect, and be separated forever from my family.

I didn't grow up with Kimball, but a lot of those same attitudes spilled over to me and my peer group as well.

[_stemelbow]

Based on what? So far, it seems like you're the one who is misunderstanding him. You have yet to offer anything in the way of context from Kimball that changes anything in the OP.

Based on the conversation to this point, Buffalo. no one has even attempted to describe what Kimball meant by suffering in that quote--other than by remorse. Remorse is a common thing for people to feel. I have no doubt that Kimball felt that remorse required something more than a few tears shed and/or a few prayers offered. That is what he said afterall. I get that. Its not that big of deal to think that remorse is more than shedding a few tears (recall fake tears were bragged about by people here in another thread).

This is clearly a mountains of our molehills thing.

[_Darth J]

I second the motion that we all owe stemelbow an apology for his lack of basic reading comprehension.

[_stemelbow]

Agreed.

Stem, Jason's post can give you some really good perspective. Jason and I are about the same age. We both grew up during President Kimball's term as prophet.

Liz, I'm pretty sure you and jason both misunderstand me. I took issue with the OP's characterization. I do not hold to the concept of forgiveness or sin that Kimball espoused totally.

[_Darth J]

The Miracle of Forgiveness, by Spencer W. Kimball

Pages 324-325

"Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all the requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking. There must be works---many works---and an all-out, total surrender, with a great humility and 'a broken heart and a contrite spirit.' It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could he weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility your sincerity, your works, your attitudes"

I wonder if the Church considers The Miracle of Forgiveness to be de facto official doctrine.

Oh, and by the way: you have to be perfect to repent.

LDS CES manual: Doctrines of the Gospel, Chapter 14

“Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. A reforming adulterer who drinks or curses is not repentant. The repenting burglar who has sex play is not ready for forgiveness. God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life” (Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 203).

I don't know what exactly "burglar sex play" is, but it sounds pretty hot.