Spencer W. Kimball: Sadist, Self-Flagellator, Anti-Christ

[_stemelbow]

Ok here is is. Stop being and obtuse dork. Read the mans god damn words. The he says what he means.

What did he say regarding suffering in that quote? The criticism was that he didn't mean remorse. he meant something else like, atonement. But what does that mean? What suffering is Kimball saying in that quote.

Man, you're mad at me.

[_stemelbow]

That's a weak dodge. We're talking about SWK and his views. You're trying to make MoF off-limits for no discernible reason other than his actual words are pretty hard to defend.

Not really. I'm trying to say, I piped up here to talk about the quote first offered, since I think you the OP creator seemed to think that suffer meant something other than remorse. Other than your allusion to we must atone or something, I'm not sure what else suffering would be. What do you think Kimball had in mind in terms of suffering? Feeling bad? Poking your eyes out? Scraping your knuckles on the concrete? What?

[_stemelbow]

On top of that, Stemelbow, if Kimball didn't mean what he said/wrote, who's fault is is that millions of LDS, past and present, have interpreted what he said consistent with the critical interpretation presented in this thread (and not your watered-down mamby-pampy interpretation)?

Are you suggesting that Kimball was that misunderstood?

Probably. I don't seem to recall any teaching in my years growing up, for instance, that suggested I had to suffer anything more than what can be called remorse for my sins. So if he meant something like slicing off your nipples, as it seems some here might think, then he was misunderstood.

[_Buffalo]

That's a weak dodge. We're talking about SWK and his views. You're trying to make MoF off-limits for no discernible reason other than his actual words are pretty hard to defend.

Not really. I'm trying to say, I piped up here to talk about the quote first offered, since I think you the OP creator seemed to think that suffer meant something other than remorse. Other than your allusion to we must atone or something, I'm not sure what else suffering would be. What do you think Kimball had in mind in terms of suffering? Feeling bad? Poking your eyes out? Scraping your knuckles on the concrete? What?

Further context, from the MoF, made it very clear what Kimball meant. Playing dumb to save Kimball is futile.

[_Darth J]

....

I don't know what exactly "burglar sex play" is, but it sounds pretty hot.

Burglar sex play.

That guy in the commercial is not going to be forgiven of his sins.

[_Darth J]

Let's just make sure we understand where President Kimball was going with this:

1. In order to be forgiven of our sins, we need to be perfect.

2. In order to be perfect, we need to be forgiven of our sins.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

[_selek]

On top of that, Stemelbow, if Kimball didn't mean what he said/wrote, who's fault is is that millions of LDS, past and present, have interpreted what he said consistent with the critical interpretation presented in this thread (and not your watered-down mamby-pampy interpretation)?

Are you suggesting that Kimball was that misunderstood?

Probably. I don't seem to recall any teaching in my years growing up, for instance, that suggested I had to suffer anything more than what can be called remorse for my sins. So if he meant something like slicing off your nipples, as it seems some here might think, then he was misunderstood.

I just realized that a primary tactic of mopologist is to deny, muddy and reinterpret what is clear and obvious.

I forgot who I was dealing with. I've heard it said that "hell is the impossibility of reason", but I'm not sure who said it.

Stemelbow, you seem like a nice enough fella, so I really don't mean to offend you. We're not talking about slicing off nipples. We're talking about the basic premise of most Christianity that Jesus atones for sins and suffered for the sinner. Kimball took it to a whole new level which is incongruent with "mainstream" Christianity, but also grossly at odds with teachings of Mormon leaders.

Please try to entertain the idea that Kimball meant what he said.

I, for one, despise the "Miracle of Forgiveness" and Kimball's general attitude towards repentance. I would venture to guess that many LDS, former or faithful, have experienced the same needless and elevated level of guilt and hopelessness advocated by Kimball.

Kimball planted a seed of hopelessness in me at an early age. I felt that I could never be good enough. That seed grew, and while it wasn't the primary reason I left the LDS religion, it certainly contributed to it. So, in one regard, I should thank Kimball.

[_Buffalo]

Let's just make sure we understand where President Kimball was going with this:

1. In order to be forgiven of our sins, we need to be perfect.

2. In order to be perfect, we need to be forgiven of our sins.

Isn't it wonderful? Isn't it marvelous?

I wonder if SWK fully expected to burn in temporary Mo-hell. It seems like it.

[_Some Schmo]

I, for one, despise the "Miracle of Forgiveness" and Kimball's general attitude towards repentance. I would venture to guess that many LDS, former or faithfull, have experienced the same needless and elevated level of guilt and hopelessness advocated by Kimball.

My brother, for one, is still one of that book's victims.

I swear, if that piece of crap SWK were alive today and I had the opportunity, I'd cut his nuts off and stuff them down his throat for the way he screwed up my brother.

[_Jason Bourne]

What did he say regarding suffering in that quote? The criticism was that he didn't mean remorse. he meant something else like, atonement. But what does that mean? What suffering is Kimball saying in that quote.

“is a very important part of repentance. One has not begun to repent until he has suffered intensely for his sins. … If a person hasn’t suffered, he hasn’t repented.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1982, pp. 88, 99.)

One is not repentant until he bares his soul and admits his actions without excuses or rationalizations, until he has really and truly suffered. Suffering is a very important part of repentance. One has not begun to repent until he has suffered intensely for his sins. (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.88)

Man, you're mad at me.

Yes when you say we misunderstand what this man clearly taught.