Postponing Having Children

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_harmony
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _harmony »

KevinSim wrote:Sock will have to answer for himself. But if my wife had "become widowed as a young mother" she would have returned to the software engineering career she left soon before we got our kids. In fact, when we got married she was making more money than I was. So not all LDS women go to college just to find husbands.


Wrong. The software career she left has changed almost immeasurably since she left it. That which is not husbanded often is.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_sock puppet
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _sock puppet »

harmony wrote:
KevinSim wrote:Sock will have to answer for himself. But if my wife had "become widowed as a young mother" she would have returned to the software engineering career she left soon before we got our kids. In fact, when we got married she was making more money than I was. So not all LDS women go to college just to find husbands.


Wrong. The software career she left has changed almost immeasurably since she left it. That which is not husbanded often is.

Great double entendre, harmony!
_why me
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _why me »

Hades wrote:I'm a married, never divorced, returned missionary. My family is out of the church and happier now. You would label me "anti-Mormon", but I'm cool with that. I'm living the impossible dream.


I am sure that they are. Being out of the LDS church one is certainly more free to choose a lifestyle more freely. However, the LDS church has given your family a good foundation to be a family. And I am sure that you still follow LDS cultural family norms. What people out of the church don't seem to realize is: the church gave them a wonderful family foundation. It matters little if they are now out of it. You certainly don't advise your children to eat drink and be merry for tomorrow may never come. Nor do you advise them to sow their wild oats now before they get tied down.

My guess is that you still teach Mormon family values.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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_why me
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _why me »

Jason Bourne wrote:
bcspace wrote:
Long hours and no pay. Where is this at you say?


Ego, recognition, power and control are all heady things as well as the fact that we put leaders on a platform and make it appear that high callings may mean someone is more righteous, the Rock Star status GAs have, and so on. Being in on things the rank and file are not in on as well is a thing that is appealing to many as well.


Which is one reason why when one is released from a top position, the person can go inactive. They lost their status and they were that status. Unfortunate to be sure.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_just me
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _just me »

BFF, I am not sure if you are aware that the LDS church has its own program for young girls. It is fairly new...I'd say less than 15 years old. It is called "Achievement Days." It is for the girls age 8-11.

It is basically a lesser version of the Young Women program....which is a lesser version of the Young Men/Boy Scout program.

I was horrified not too long ago when I overheard what one of the "activities" for these little girls was going to be.

The bishop was going to come and speak with them on modesty and choosing a husband.

Yeah, so I have signed my daughter up for Girl Scouts and I felt wonderfully subversive when I did it.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _Jersey Girl »

just me wrote:BFF, I am not sure if you are aware that the LDS church has its own program for young girls. It is fairly new...I'd say less than 15 years old. It is called "Achievement Days." It is for the girls age 8-11.[/quote|

How is this different from the old Girls Activity and what are the girls achieving?

[quote_It is basically a lesser version of the Young Women program....which is a lesser version of the Young Men/Boy Scout program.


Why are the LDS programs for girls lesser than lesser?

I was horrified not too long ago when I overheard what one of the "activities" for these little girls was going to be.

The bishop was going to come and speak with them on modesty and choosing a husband.


And this achieves what, a husband?

Yeah, so I have signed my daughter up for Girl Scouts and I felt wonderfully subversive when I did it.


You rebel feminist!!

On a more homey note, I set up the vanilla extract today.

Oh yeah!!!
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_just me
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _just me »

As for not postponing children...There is a lot of social pressure in the LDS church to get pregnant right away.

There are ladies at church who literally ASK you when you are going to get pregnant/have a baby! It is so, so horrible!

I have friends who were told by closer members (like close friends, family) that they were wicked for not trying to conceive right away.

Luckily, I was not. I was 18 when I got married so people didn't really ask...that I can remember. Actually, they probably did but I felt good about my decision to not have a baby until I was no longer a teenager and told people as much.

However, as soon as my oldest was about 1 or 2 I started getting asked ALL the time when we were going to have another one. This was painful since I was actually trying and unable to for several years.

The church needs to stick its nose out of its members reproductive choices. The church has the position that everyone should become a parent and that is just as far from the truth as you can get. Not everyone should have one kid, let alone 4 or 5 or 6. This, along with teaching that God won't give you more than you can handle, can have catastrophic personal consequences.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_just me
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _just me »

Jersey Girl wrote:
just me wrote:BFF, I am not sure if you are aware that the LDS church has its own program for young girls. It is fairly new...I'd say less than 15 years old. It is called "Achievement Days." It is for the girls age 8-11.


How is this different from the old Girls Activity and what are the girls achieving?


They are the same thing. They probably acheive a token award when they turn 12. They get to set goals and acheive them. This prepares them for the Young Women's program which is setting goals and acheiving them. They mostly center on spiriituality and family life.

[quote_It is basically a lesser version of the Young Women program....which is a lesser version of the Young Men/Boy Scout program.


Why are the LDS programs for girls lesser than lesser?[/quote]

Less money. Obviously, less of a priority. The females are not viewed as needing the same experiences and push towards leadership development and career exploration.

I was horrified not too long ago when I overheard what one of the "activities" for these little girls was going to be.

The bishop was going to come and speak with them on modesty and choosing a husband.


And this achieves what, a husband?


Yes. Apparently it is never too early.

Yeah, so I have signed my daughter up for Girl Scouts and I felt wonderfully subversive when I did it.


You rebel feminist!!

On a more homey note, I set up the vanilla extract today.

Oh yeah!!!


Woot! I need to set mine up still.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _Jason Bourne »

just me wrote:BFF, I am not sure if you are aware that the LDS church has its own program for young girls. It is fairly new...I'd say less than 15 years old. It is called "Achievement Days." It is for the girls age 8-11.

It is basically a lesser version of the Young Women program....which is a lesser version of the Young Men/Boy Scout program.

.


Just me I love ya but I just don't agree that the YW program in the Church is a lesser version of the YM program. The Personal Progress Program and it predecessor have been in place for many, many years. In fact when I was a YM president I use to despair that the YW had a better program for the YW that was Church focused then we had for the YM. That was pre Duty To God for YM and all we had was Scouts and whatever else we could design. Well guess what, not all boys want to do scouts. I didn't when I was a kid. I liked activities and camping and stuff but I just hated the merit badge program and had no desire to do Eagle.

The vibe for boys had been Scouts is the YM activity program for the Church. I disagreed. So as a YM pres I ran a Scouting program and staffed it with men you were good at that. Any boy that wanted to do scouting we kept them in it as long as we could. Essentially our weekly activity night was two nights scouting, one night joint activity with the YW and one night sports. The two nights that were scouting I had to figure out something on my own for the boys who did not want to do scouts. That or they did not show up two nights a month. So I took them out to bowl, eat, play foosball, career issues, srevice, whatever I could.

But the girls had an ambitious personal progress program that in my view, if they did it for all their years and completed it was equal to the work it took for Eagle. They had a much better program laid out for them.

As for activities and money spent, the girls had as much budgeted as the boys did. Boys had summer scout camp or high adventure, girls had girls camp and could do an extra high adventure type activity. Each year there was a joint boy girl youth conference as well.

The YW do not have a lesser program. One may not particularly like some of the focus for the girls which tends to be more on being a wonderfully prepared for temple marriage woman and being a good mom, service, etc. But they talk about education as well. No they do not hype careers though when I was a bishop all but one of the women the was a YW president were working women and quite good at what they did.
_just me
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Re: Postponing Having Children

Post by _just me »

Jason Bourne wrote:Just me I love ya but I just don't agree that the YW program in the Church is a lesser version of the YM program. The Personal Progress Program and it predecessor have been in place for many, many years. In fact when I was a YM president I use to despair that the YW had a better program for the YW that was Church focused then we had for the YM. That was pre Duty To God for YM and all we had was Scouts and whatever else we could design. Well guess what, not all boys want to do scouts. I didn't when I was a kid. I liked activities and camping and stuff but I just hated the merit badge program and had no desire to do Eagle.

The vibe for boys had been Scouts is the YM activity program for the Church. I disagreed. So as a YM pres I ran a Scouting program and staffed it with men you were good at that. Any boy that wanted to do scouting we kept them in it as long as we could. Essentially our weekly activity night was two nights scouting, one night joint activity with the YW and one night sports. The two nights that were scouting I had to figure out something on my own for the boys who did not want to do scouts. That or they did not show up two nights a month. So I took them out to bowl, eat, play foosball, career issues, srevice, whatever I could.

But the girls had an ambitious personal progress program that in my view, if they did it for all their years and completed it was equal to the work it took for Eagle. They had a much better program laid out for them.

As for activities and money spent, the girls had as much budgeted as the boys did. Boys had summer scout camp or high adventure, girls had girls camp and could do an extra high adventure type activity. Each year there was a joint boy girl youth conference as well.

The YW do not have a lesser program. One may not particularly like some of the focus for the girls which tends to be more on being a wonderfully prepared for temple marriage woman and being a good mom, service, etc. But they talk about education as well. No they do not hype careers though when I was a bishop all but one of the women the was a YW president were working women and quite good at what they did.


I will agree with you that the YM program isn't all that great. But I won't agree that the YW have a better program. Basically, they are both hit-or-miss at best and they are both very cookie cutter. Too bad kids don't fit into the molds.
I think that which is "better" is subjective and based on priorities. Since I think that career development and things of a more secular nature are more important than the teaching of get-married-in-the-temple-have-babies that is what I base my opinion on.

When I have been in YW as a girl or as a leader we have never really talked about education other than to say what the prophets have said on it. We never had any activities about education, other than religious.

We had Girl's Camp once a summer and that is it. Now they have camp one summer and high adventure the next. The boys typically try to have a campout once a month plus the big scout camp each summer. Obviously not all girls are interesting in more camping. I would have been. There are boys who are not into scouting, my brothers weren't. Like I said, cookie cutter.
There was always one conference overnight each year and then they started doing Pioneer Trek once every 4 years.

In our ward there is more fund raising for the scouts than for the YW. As a parent I know that the cost of having a scout is higher than the cost of having a YW. I'm not sure how that makes the money spent equal. To me it looks unequal and I've heard that complaint from people in other stakes. But, clearly I will never know what really goes on with the budget. Let's say that the church budget is identical for each. More is still spent on scouts than on young women by the individual members.

Anyway, I didn't say it was horrible, I said it was a lesser program and I still believe that based on my personal priorities of what I would like my children experiencing. That said, I get pissed off regularly at the scouting program as executed in our ward.

I love you, too!
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden
~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
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