I've switched sides...again

[_Jaybear]

You simply can't disprove my personal unseeable experience even if you are so adamant that "the church is false"--silly testimony bearer.

There are two separate components to this testimony of yours. What you purportedly experienced, and what conclusion you drew from the experience.

While we can't "disprove" that you had a supernatural experience, we can certainly examine whether the conclusions that you have drawn from the experience are reasonable.

[_stemelbow]

There are two separate components to this testimony of yours. What you purportedly experienced, and what conclusion you drew from the experience.

While we can't "disprove" that you had a supernatural experience, we can certainly examine whether the conclusions that you have drawn from the experience are reasonable.

I don't think another could offer a fair assessment. To describe a spiritual experience will inevitably be an incomplete look at the experience. To experience it is in itself part of the conclusion. While I get your point (yes indeed anyone can misinterpret any thing and call it a spiritual experience or conclude certain things wrongly about the spiritual experience), overall I think you overplay your hand. You can certainly offer your opinion, but offering that is not in itself actually addressing my own experience, which you only presume to judge.

[_Tarski]

You simply can't disprove my personal unseeable experience.

You had an inner experience. What would it mean to disprove it? Experiences are brain events. I am sure there was a brain event. But, so what?


Example: I had a weird feeling one day associated with the conviction that old blue haired women are really super intelligent beings controlling human politics. Can you disprove my experience?
Well, it isn't my experience that needs disproving is it now. It is the claim! My inner feeling is irrelevant.

[_stemelbow]

You had an inner experience. What would it mean to disprove it? Experiences are brain events. I am sure there was a brain event. But, so what?


Example: I had a weird feeling one day associated with the conviction that old blue haired women are really super intelligent beings controlling human politics. Can you disprove my experience?
Well, it isn't my experience that needs disproving is it now. It is the claim! My inner feeling is irrelevant.

I see you get my point then. Thanks.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

I too have had some real and profound spiritual experiences which can not be explained logically. But to be fair, I must recognize that the spiritual experiences of believers of other faiths must be real and profound also, leaving me to believe that the mind can do this for anyone with any belief.

[_why me]

But based on my spiritual experience that I had over 15 years ago (and still remains fresh in my mind) I don't believe either of those things will happen. They could, but I don't believe it will.

I keep one foot in because of a spiritual experience that I had back in 1974. I prayed about the Book of Mormon and received such a powerful witness as to its truthfulness that I just can not deny that experience. And I never will. This is one reason why I can understand the 11 witnesses and the women who prayed about polygamy when Joseph Smith asked them to be sealed to him. We all had a very powerful spiritual experience.

Good luck with your return. Keep it simple and remember your experience when you begin to doubt.

[_Abaddon]

I echo Jon. What's the spiritual experience you had that is convincing you to go back?

I don't know that describing my experience will mean anything to someone that didn't experience it.

For example, a Catholic could see an apparition of the Virgin Mary in a cloud or in a picture and come away feeling quite spiritual from it (it doesn't do anything for me, but I don't doubt it did for the Catholic).

A hiker could be sitting on the top of a mountain and feel a spiritual experience (you may not).

I could describe in detail what happened to me and most would say, "Eh..."

What I do know is that I've felt good feelings (warm fuzzies as they are called) listening to certain Weezer or Metallica songs. I've felt those same feelings listening to certain hymns performed by certain choirs. I must conclude that either the Spirit is testifying of the truthfulness of Metallica and Weezer or those warm feelings are simply an emotional reaction. I'm apt to describe warm feelings or fuzzies as not the Spirit at all, but I could be wrong.

My experience was far more (in my opinion) than warm fuzzies. I'm not prone to spiritual experiences. It has happened only once.

I've often questioned why it happened to me and hasn't happened to many others (especially others that want it to happen and end up leaving the church because it didn't). I've also questioned why the General Authorities will often say the witness may not come in a powerful way, but slowly and with quiet thoughts or assurances. That wasn't my experience. It did come in a very powerful, poignant and personal way.

That is why I look evidence in the face and go with my experience. Foolish? Backward? I have no good answers if anyone thinks that of me. I'd think it myself if I didn't have my experience to back me up.

It is what it is.

And in it's own way...it's still very frustrating that I don't have any good answers that would appeal to the logical mind.

[_Buffalo]

And in it's own way...it's still very frustrating that I don't have any good answers that would appeal to the logical mind.

Have you considered the possibility that your strong experience was a fluke of your brain?

It's almost trite by now, but have you also wondered why God should endow men with reason but then set things up so that reason doesn't support God?

[_bcspace]

You know, the evidence against the church seems so logical in my head. There are so many things you can post that cast a gloomy light on the church and puts their whole foundation and history of truth in question.

In a way the evidence against the church seems so obvious to me that it's like adding 2+2 to make 4.

So why am I abandoning my apostasy and returning back to activity and just got finished confessing to my bishop tonight in an attempt to return to activity?

Probably because the LDS Church looks nothing like (and never did) the FLDS Church our critics claim it to be.

[_Chap]

Why do you call this a 'spiritual' experience? Was it because it was;

1. An experience that involved content that most people would call 'religious', that is, related to Jesus, or Mohammed, the Buddha, or similar.

Or simply because it was;

2. Very impressive in emotional terms.

Or because it

3. Contained information that you did not have at the time, but which later turned out to be true.

Or what?