If God interevened in the world, science wouldn't work

[_jon]

When was the last time a court relied solely on eye witness testimony?

I don't keep track of stuff like that. But when was the last time a court said, "well you know we don't have anything at all but this eye witness testimony which we know is the worst most unreliable thing ever. So let's just throw this all out." Better yet when was the last time a court made a decision with something less that eyewitness testimony? I think that trial my wife was all concerned about recently shows us a case of that--some gal from US getting convicted of murdering someone in Italy. Can't think of names right now, but you know what I mean.

As I understand the circumstances of the trial you seem to be referring to, the guilty verdict was overturned simply because all they had were some eye witness testimonies after the physical evidence was shown to be contaminated.

[_Themis]

As I understand the circumstances of the trial you seem to be referring to, the guilty verdict was overturned simply because all they had were some eye witness testimonies after the physical evidence was shown to be contaminated.

My understanding was that the main pieces was some DNA that was very contestable and her admission, which was coerced. This is actually common for innocent people to confess under certain situations.

[_Themis]

I don't keep track of stuff like that. But when was the last time a court said, "well you know we don't have anything at all but this eye witness testimony which we know is the worst most unreliable thing ever. So let's just throw this all out."

Not the most unreliable, but less reliable then we would like. We do have to look at each situation, and many I would consider reliable.

[_Themis]

What would happen if, just once, the third law of motion broke down? Say, during a ballistics test?

From a religious POV why would God need to interfere, and if he did, it would not mean the law would be discarded. Remember that most big miracles happened long before modern science.

[_Franktalk]

I will attempt to answer this question from scripture.

We live today in a world where God is a mystery and that will not end for some time. It will end towards the end of the Great Tribulation period of 3 1/2 years.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

and

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

However God does desire a relationship with us so God provides a path to Him by a spiritual bridge.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So this is the path that has been laid out for us but some say they need a sign before they will believe.

Mar 8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.

But what is the starting point that will lead one to faith so you can develop the spiritual walk?

1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

So we have this dual existence that we live in. If one follows the natural world then God is a mystery, He will not show a sign because we are to come to Him in faith. God has laid all this out in scripture. But the people of the world will not see it because it is foolishness to them.

1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

So God will not do obvious miracles because it would negate the mystery that we live in. And it would break down faith. But man can witness miracles and still have no faith. Some men follow their belly.

Joh 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

Even the miracle of returning from the dead will not turn some people.

Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[_cksalmon]

And that's because we wouldn't get repeatability and predictability. Imagine trying to track courses for rockets in a world where the laws of physics can be interfered with by an unseen being. God's intervention would throw everything off. So either God isn't real, or God is as the Deists suppose - complete aloof, never intervening in anything. Both amount to the same thing, really. God is irrelevant to us.

As a group, Mormons strike me as a generally-deistic lot, at least in the general sense that you're highlighting. So, I'm not sure how this is a particularly compelling argument against Mormonism, per se, if that's what you're going for, Buffalo.

But, then, even on my own worldview ("You're not debating evangelicals here" ;) ), I'm not sure why I'd be compelled to grant that God simply must treat his own physical laws as inviolable.

You've presented a false dichotomy here. There is no necessary either-or resolution in view.

[_Buffalo]

And that's because we wouldn't get repeatability and predictability. Imagine trying to track courses for rockets in a world where the laws of physics can be interfered with by an unseen being. God's intervention would throw everything off. So either God isn't real, or God is as the Deists suppose - complete aloof, never intervening in anything. Both amount to the same thing, really. God is irrelevant to us.

As a group, Mormons strike me as a generally-deistic lot, at least in the general sense that you're highlighting. So, I'm not sure how this is a particularly compelling argument against Mormonism, per se, if that's what you're going for, Buffalo.

But, then, even on my own worldview ("You're not debating evangelicals here" ;) ), I'm not sure why I'd be compelled to grant that God simply must treat his own physical laws as inviolable.

You've presented a false dichotomy here. There is no necessary either-or resolution in view.

I think you'll find that Mormon history (not to mention Mormon scripture) depends on an interventionist god. But the intention wasn't to argue against Mormonism per se - just any interventionist god.

What I'm saying is, if God meddled in the physical world, it would make prediction impossible. God might well violate his own physical laws all the time, but then we'd have no science if God did so. We'd still be living in caves because the repeatability, testability and predictability would be overthrown.

[_cksalmon]

I think you'll find that Mormon history (not to mention Mormon scripture) depends on an interventionist god. But the intention wasn't to argue against Mormonism per se - just any interventionist god.

Fair enough, Buffalo. But I don't know of a single proponent of the interventionist God idea who argues that said God routinely, if ever, interferes with rocket trajectories, which was your example.

Heck, Mormons consider God to be so hands-off that he utterly refuses to meddle with human agency. If he stays hands-off in that regard, I don't know why you'd be so concerned that he would mess with ballistics on a mere whim.

What I'm saying is, if God meddled in the physical world, it would make prediction impossible.

Miracles are, definitionally, exceptional. Assuming, on my view, that miracles have occured, they are statistically irrelevant. That's sort of the point: they are exceptions that prove noteworthy for being exceptional. That doesn't entail that an interventionist God makes prediction impossible; in fact, it argues the other direction. Divine intervention is noteworthy precisely because it violates routine predictability.

God might well violate his own physical laws all the time, but then we'd have no science if
God did so.

But, since neither Mormons, nor evangelicals, nor atheists (such as yourself) actually believe your hypothetical accurately describes the real world, it's a moot point. Thus, I happily concede it: If God violated his physical laws "all the time," we'd have no predictable basis for the sort of scientific experimentation that depends upon repeatable results.

Do you believe that all/some proponents of an interventionist God propound that their interventionist God violates his own physical laws all the time, thus rendering observational knowledge of our world completely useless?

If so, can you tell me who said such a thing?

[_beefcalf]

As a group, Mormons strike me as a generally-deistic lot, at least in the general sense that you're highlighting.

Heck, Mormons consider God to be so hands-off that he utterly refuses to meddle with human agency. If he stays hands-off in that regard, I don't know why you'd be so concerned that he would mess with ballistics on a mere whim.

ck,

I ceased all activity in the church only in the last year or so, but was completely active until right around three years ago. So I had to read what you wrote twice to be completely sure I read it right.

It has been my experience that LDS are among the most theistic (vs. deistic) people, ascribing divine intervention to a host of events on a weekly, even daily, basis. Intercessory prayer is a staple of LDS meetings, priesthood blessings, family home evenings and virtually any childhood or adolescent emergency. Assistance in finding lost car keys, helping Sister Rheinhart with her diabetes, asking for God himself to adjust the chemical and physical properties of post-fireside refreshments so as to make them nourishing and strengthening... are these platitudes? Empty rhetoric? Purely symbolic? I'd wager that most LDS you talk to on Sunday would say 'no'. They are literally expecting the invisible hand of God to reach down and help rearrange the whatnots and wherefores of their daily lives. Frequently and regularly.

Did I read you wrong?

[_just me]

I think that nobody thinks the actual intervention through.

In the GC story about the man who prayed for a quarter and God answered his prayer with a quarter on the ground for him to pick up, where did that quarter come from?

Did God create it out of nothing and put it there? Arrange elements into a quarter (counterfiet) and put it there? Did he make some other poor soul drop it (theft) so that the other guy could come across it?

How did God do that?