ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

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_Hoops
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Hoops »

Buffalo wrote:It's possible it could be slightly older, but not possible that it could be younger than 4.54 billion years old. Either way, it looks bad for the Jesus Squad.

I recall, recently, that someone has found evidence that earth is younger. So, which is it?

Nevertheless, how is this bad for Christians?
_Chap
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Chap »

Hoops wrote:http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1890499/earth_younger_than_previously_thought


"As a result of their research, Dr. Rudge and his colleagues believe that Earth is approximately 4.467 billion years old. Previously, scientists believed the planet was 4.537 billion years old."

The Bible is true after all!
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Hoops
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Hoops »

Chap wrote:
Hoops wrote:http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1890499/earth_younger_than_previously_thought


"As a result of their research, Dr. Rudge and his colleagues believe that Earth is approximately 4.467 billion years old. Previously, scientists believed the planet was 4.537 billion years old."

The Bible is true after all!

Buffalo made the claim. He's wrong. His error has no relationship to the Bible.
_Buffalo
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Buffalo »

Hoops wrote:
Buffalo wrote:It's possible it could be slightly older, but not possible that it could be younger than 4.54 billion years old. Either way, it looks bad for the Jesus Squad.

I recall, recently, that someone has found evidence that earth is younger. So, which is it?

Nevertheless, how is this bad for Christians?


The earth can't be younger than its oldest components.

It's bad for the Jesus Squad because Yahweh told Moses that he created the earth in the year 4000 BC or so. I guess Yahweh didn't know what he was talking bout.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Buffalo »

Hoops wrote:[
Buffalo made the claim. He's wrong. His error has no relationship to the Bible.


Quibbling about a tiny margin of error isn't really meaningful in the face of Jesus' four and a half billion year error.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Hoops
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Hoops »


The earth can't be younger than its oldest components. .

Which, not too long ago, was thought to be 2.5 billion years. I'm sure they, at the time, were just as sure of this fact as you are now of this one.
_DrW
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _DrW »

Chap wrote:This view of science as being liable to a total 'overturn' at any moment is odd, and does not really represent that way things have gone on over the last '100 or 200 years'.

Large parts of the science we still use are really very old - such as the system of dynamics established in its essentials by Isaac Newton in 1687. Although we have learned that Newton's system does not represent accurately what happens at high speeds or when very large masses are involved, it is still reliable for all everyday purposes. Maxwell's electromagnetic equations were published in 1861-2, and still do for electric and magnetic fields what Newton did for the motion of masses. In five years' time, general relativity will be 100 years old, and it is still one of the most powerful physical theories we have. Like Newton's dynamics, it may eventually be shown to have its limitations, but that time is not yet, and any competing theory will be in part judged by whether it tells us why general relativity seems to be true in all the tests it has survived so far. We have known about atomic nuclei since Rutherford's paper in 1911. And so on. The science that Franktalk speaks of as entirely provisional and likely to be 'washed away by future generations' isn't the science known to people who actually understand and practice it.

Franktalk,

What Chap wrote here is absolutely true and well said. Perhaps you might consider the fact that some of the folks contributing to this thread have made real contributions to science. (It is a requirement for earning an Ph.D.)

For example, my small contribution to science, as set forth in my thesis and in a number of papers thereafter, is highly unlikely to be "overturned" in the future.

I identified a previously unrecognized hormone in humans and helped describe and verify its metabolic pathways, one of which, interestingly enough, can result in the production of small amounts of DMT.

Unless humankind evolves so as to lose the genetic sequences that code for the enzymes that produce this hormone and the endogenous psychoactive compounds that can slip out along its metabolic pathway, I would think my contribution is pretty safe. I would also think that anyone who has made contributions to mathematics or physics (as others here certainly have) can be reasonably confident that their contributions are similarly "safe" from overturn.

As Chap, keithb, and others have described, now multiply this by the millions who work in scientific research at some time in their careers and you get some idea of the "weight of evidence" problem that science deniers and religious fundamentalists have.

Again as Chap pointed out, some of the most important theories we have today, those that we recognize as fundamentals of nature, including electromagnetics, relativity (and I dare say evolution) were developed in the 19th (or early 20th) century and are at least 100 years old.

By contrast, 19th century LDS Church prophets, claiming inspiration from God, assured humankind that the sun received its light from Kolob and that both the moon and the sun were inhabited.

Talk about overturn.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Tarski
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _Tarski »

Hoops wrote:Buffalo made the claim. He's wrong. His error has no relationship to the Bible.


Every measurement comes with a margin of error or it isn't meaningful. By your lights, all measurements are wrong.

If I measure myself to be 6 foot 2 inches, do I mean that I am that tall exactly? Could an absolutely exact measurement even make sense?

Confidence in measurements is based on mathematical error analysis. It is a serious subject.

FYI, we are confident that the Earth is 4.1 and 4.8 billion years old.

We are extremely confident that it is between 3 and 6 billions years old.

Our confidence that the Earth is billions of years old rather than millions is like our confidence that the moon is farther from the surface of the earth than rain clouds.
But I am sure that if the Bible hinted that the moon could be lower than clouds and hence get rained on, you would be defending that notion ( a notion no more silly than the ones you do defend).
when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo
_DrW
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Re: ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

Post by _DrW »

Hoops wrote:

The earth can't be younger than its oldest components. .

Which, not too long ago, was thought to be 2.5 billion years. I'm sure they, at the time, were just as sure of this fact as you are now of this one.

You need to understand that when scientists provide these estimates they also describe the data on which the estimates are based and the means by which those data were obtained. Estimates of possible error are usually also provided.

So I guess I would have to disagree that scientists were "just as confident" of the 2.5 billion year estimate as they are of the 4.5 billion year estimate.

Actually when you think about it, when compared to less than 10,000 years, there is not much practical difference between 2.5 billion years and 4.5 billion years. The two scientific estimates are within an order of magnitude of one another and 4 or 5 orders of magnitude away from the scriptural age.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
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